"respect each other and can work out a way of compromising and living with the differences in a realistic way." Karen, so true. That is the core...what has worked in my marriage, is each person pursuing individual interests, but never at the expense of our relationship...that is the tricky part to work out. But it's also what makes it gratifying in the end as well. Your comments are honest and generous. Thank you.

P.S. I remember that movie in question...Blech!

Formal debates, huh? Well for your sake, I hope yours wasn't moderated by those idiots from PBS, who asked Bush and Kerry the same question over and over again for 90 minutes.

Randi: It's odd, I remember watching the movie and liking it, though being sort of repelled at the same time. It's a problem I have in my life, something I've never been able to reconcile: my love/hate relationship with popular culture. More and more though, I have come over to Karen's way of thinking.

Jake: I am proud to say that PBS has never been a driving force in my life. Though I do like an occassional series. But PBS should not exist. Taxpayers should not bankroll this leftist propaganda, especially when cable TV is out there. PBS should compete in the marketplace of ideas like everybody else. I sorely resent Bill Moyers getting a free ride for his anti-American, Anti-Republican, Anti-Religious rhetoric. I'll bet that if Moyers had to compete in the free market place of ideas, he would fail miserably and we would hear from this pompous blow-hard never again.
Oh, Yes, Karen and I and our debate about art! Karen and I had a civilzed, lively and fair debate, something you will not find among radical Democrats. It was not as formal as it sounds; there were no podiums or clocks. But it was a lively exchange of ideas and it was fun. I learned a great deal from Karen. Mostly I learned that I was a PRETENTIOUS JERK! I have changed. A lot. Though I still like the white paintings of Robert Ryman.

One might liken a modern art canvas to a man's relationship with "his woman" and a woman's relationship with "her man":

1. (sometimes) there is a need/strong desire to display modern art...or your better half

2. both the canvas and the woman/man might require interpretation

3. beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder

4. sometimes it pays just to stand back and stare or cock your head sideways in confusion

5. and sometimes... there is no allowing for good taste!

Not for political reasons, but I agree that PBS should not be government-funded. I believe in the free market for most things, (except necessities like transportation, sewage and some healthcare. None of them will ever be profittable for the private sector, but they are an essential public need). In a 500 channel universe, the good shows PBS broadcasts will find a good home elsewhere (especially the kids' shows which are already a huge goldmine, and would be even more if they were just on cable. As someone who dreams of writing comedy/educational skits for Sesame Street one day, I wouldn't mind knowing I could do it for an actual living wage)!
Anyway, I think the best point about your latest post is that you have a real give-and-take with Karen, and it was established early. I'm very thankful my wife never lets me get away with anything I and only wish that were true for some of the other married people close to me in my life. One-sided relationships are just downright scary, and I'm not even talking about the domestic violence/Lifetime Network Movie of the Week-type stuff.

Pearl: And sometimes the art is just nice to live with.

Jake: I have always found that those who agitate loudest for PBS and federal funding for the arts are those who cannot compete in a free market. Glad to hear that your wife does not allow you to get away with anything. Sounds like you chose wisely -- as did I.

The give and take is what is missing in so many relationships and not to go political, but it is missing today.

There is a fundamental problem with relationships where you are supposed to be a clone of the other.

Jack:

Karen and I are definitely not clones of one another. But on the vital issues--values, and this does include poltics--we are as one.

Re: the Film That Shall Remain Nameless, I thought Brando's performance in it was the most courageous and extraordinary of his career. Given the subject matter, I think feeling repulsed (or very sad, as I did) is quite normal.

Robert, thanks again for pointing out that sharing values is more important than sharing interests. The latter can certainly change quite a bit; hopefully the former don't -- at least not too much, and only for the better.

I didn't understand this important distinction when I was younger, one reason my first marriage didn't work out. Though I can be pretty thick, I learned. While my husband sometimes laughs at my Netflix selections (or grumbles about having to read subtitles) we share common values. These sustain us.

1) Volder... er, I mean The Film That Must Not Be Named:
I'm not that much younger than all of you, I don't think. And even if I was, I'm pretty well steeped in pop culture. But I can not think of what movie this is, and it's driving me nuts. Maybe someone could give me a hint.

2) The myth of PBS bias:
part the first: Republican appointee and CPB chair Ken Tomlinson appointed a moderate conservative Ken Bode and ultraconservative William Schultz as ombudsmen over PBS and NPR. Unfortunately, they've had pretty much nothing but good things to say about their charges. And no mention of bias or imbalance to be found.

part the second: ole Kenny is sitting on two (count 'em, two) public surveys. Reported to Congress by CPB (and so, necessarily, by Tomlinson himself) and (I'm pretty sure) commissioned by Tomlinson... both of which come out with the result that (oversimplifying here) NPR and CPB are considered the most reliable, accurate, and unbiased sources of news. And do we really want to go into the fact that those who get their news from CPB/NPR are the least likely to believe complete fallacies about the situation in Iraq.

(Whatever you think about whether or not Saddam had WMD, there's no contesting the fact on the ground that the US has not actually yet discovered any. And I don't want to hear about the much-vaunted biological trailers, which have disappeared from public debate for very good reasons.)

3) The free market and government:
The whole point of government is to step in where the free market fails. I don't need a government to convince, say, BigSodaCo to sell BigSoda. They'll happily do that without any prompting. Profit motive and all that.

I need government to convince BigSodaCo to not use contaminated water (which would be much cheaper) when they're brewing up the BigSoda. I need government to step in where the free market -- because of the inherent structure of the free market, such as externalities -- will fail to advance the greater good.

White paint with tons of lead in it? Very bright, very cheap. Good for when you have to paint a big structure like an apartment complex or a school. And if a bunch of little kids get lead poisoning? "Well," says the landlord, "it ain't my kid."

So, too, with art. I think it's a fairly uncontroversial statement that poetry is a valid art form and does contribute something incohate to the world. But I think it's also fairly uncontroversial that it's *very* *very* tough to make a living writing it. Or songwriting. Or theater.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm avoiding work.

--FD

Okay, Frum Dad, I will help you out. The film's initials are LTIP and if you want to take all mystery out of it: look up Brando's early 70's credits on Imdb.com.

Frumdad:

PBS is not biased. That's um, interesting? I guess my eyes and ears have just been deceiving me all these years. I've been, what? the victim of, what? some elaborate conspiracy all these years? Bill Moyers and his ilk are not really saying what they are saying? Okey-dokey. On this blog, I strive for clarity more than anything else and your post is, er, illuminating. Thanks so much for reading Seraphic Secret.

Robert and Karen, I'm still loving your romantic saga.
I've arrived in California, but unfortunately do not have access to my internet files, and thus to your emial address(es). To top it off, for some strange reason, your links, including to your email address, do not come up on this computer. So this is the only way I have of reaching you.
Could you please email me at this link and for safety's sake also at ruthp-shorer@sbcglobal.net?
Sorry to use your blog comments section for this.
Thanks, Sara

The WORST movie I have ever seen. I left the theatre wondering, what was THAT?

Dear Azriel: An appropriate response. Thanks for for reading Seraphic Secret.

I think Karen is my long lost twin. My degree is in math, I have black hair and I LOATHE modern art.

You guys are great. What an inspiration.

"LTIP" - OK now I got it. Shows how naive I am, I thought you were talking about "The Godfather" all this time!

Robert, also wanted to say thanks for doing what you do so well! I consider you one of my "blogparents" in inspiring me to start Elie's Expositions. As per my entry
yesterday, I am working on further following your example in being able to blog more about my son's passing.

Have a good Shabbos!

Elie: What can we say about Aharon's passing? As always, words are inadequate. We hope that writing about your precious son brings some measure of comfort. Have a lovely and meaningful Shabbos.

Heh. Our debate was over whether the sky was blue. I (the Lit major) was fer it, she (the scientist and artist) was agin it. Similar debates ensued over whether black and white were legitimate colors. Equivalent positions.

Only debate I ever lost. It was then I was in love.

Kyle: Thanks so much for writing. In truth, it doesn't sound like you lost the debate at all, I mean, you got the girl, right? What is art compared to true love?