"They are scattered all over the Upper West Side like mad butterflies."

What a beautiful analogy!!!

And re. this: "The moral of the story is...You just know when it's right and you glide along and life takes care of you."

I read it, it triggered a nerve in this sappy fool and it made me cry...perhaps because: 1) I feel happy for you that you were in such a wonderful comfort zone with that knowledge, and 2)because that's how TorontoPearl came to be MRS. TorontoPearl -- it was just so right then...it is just so right now.

'And that was our proposal, no flourishes, no flowers, just brass tacks.'

Maybe so, but beautiful just the same. :)

Pearl: For once, delighted to make somebody cry.

That was a great story. I liked the different sides. Her side did seem a little more real, but I believed that what you wrote was really what was going on in your head. Once the word is out, it's out. Great job.

Dear CC: When I read what Karen wrote, I was like WHAT!? Are you sure? But Karen just fixed me with her look, and that affectionate smile that says: "Robert, who in this family has the primary relationship to reality?" And of course I knew, I just knew that her version had to be the accurate one. What can I say? I tell it like it is, but sometimes how it is is not really how it was but how I see it has become in my little feverish mind now that it's in the past. Know what I mean? Which gives you a clue as to why I love Karen so much. She keeps me honest. Sort of.

Robert, Mr. Randi will love this post...someone else who didn't "propose"! For 20 years, I've teased him: "when are you finally going to propose to me?!" But, like you and Karen, marriage was something we naturally fell into it, because we just fit. And after 20 years, we are still here...together. It seems that many couples who started with a one-knee proposal, with flowers and fireworks...are no longer together...so maybe the question here is "What is romance"...flowers and candles (which are nice too)...or loving, respecting, talking, laughing, and standing by your partner no matter which way life takes you? Think I'll take the latter.

No ring?!!! I'll be definitely waiting for that post LOL.

Addendum to my comment: Just realized that today, twelve years ago, I was proposed to. It had been decided that it had been a day as good as any -- certainly wasn't ostentatious and plotted out for months. It had its spontaneity: "Do you want to be engaged before or after we go to the restaurant for dinner?" After the restaurant, we went to my grandfather's grave, and then we went to a playground, sat opposite one another on the low benches of a playhouse and so, Mr. TorontoPearl almost couldn't HELP but kneel when he "officially" proposed. Then we went to my parents' house to surprise them with a L'chaim. It was nice, simple and sweet...

Randi: Mr. Randi and I have to get together and trade stories. I will blog sometime in the future about why there is no word in the Torah for "romance." Clue: if a word cannot be found in the Torah, the concept is probably an illusion.

Tamara: Nope, no ring. What could possibly keep me from buying a nice shiny diamond for Karen--besides lack of money? Keep tuned for that blog. It's classic, and I'm truly dumb or weak or whatever for letting it affect me to this very day.

That is just the sweetest story!

You think there was no romance, yet the romance lives on.

Pearl: Please, did Mr. Toronto Pearl kneel or did he not kneel? None of this "he couldn't help but kneel." Come on! Inquiring minds want--no demand to know! And then I can really go to town on Mr. TM when I meet him in person!

Hee. My husband and I just sort of acknowledged that we were getting married on a walk through Fort Tryon Park, when a discussion of things we liked to eat turned into wondering if we would get put into cherem if we had a milchigs wedding. That was more or less that. (And the wedding was parve.)

As I recall I was pretty much told.

"Oh by the way I think 23rd of October is good for a wedding".

"Wot?"

"And make sure your service dress uniform fits."

"My wot?"

"And you better phone you mother before she hears it from someone else or we'll never hear the end of it."

"My who?"

The ol deer in the headlights method.

Rightwingsparkle: I'm going to blog about the difference between love and romance pretty soon. Let me know what you think. I have to say it, love your name!

Abby: Lovely story. Mazal Tov. This topic of Not Popping the Question seems to deserve a blog all its own. Mazal Tov.

Murray: Did you marry your platoon leader? No matter, mazal tov! Luv it! Stay in touch.

Actually she was a naval officer I was an army NCO.

And there's an entire new area of social problems.

What a fun way to start the day!

I also have, thank God, a long (28 years) and successful marriage that started out without a without a clear proposal. Very early in my relationship with "Mr. Sara" (I call him Don in my blog), when things were still very casual between us, I remarked (and unfortunately I don't remember the context) something like "Well, it's not as if we're getting married or anything." Don's romantic answer was "Why not, by the way?" I answered that we were really just friends, etc.

A few months later, when our relationship had become boy-girl serious, I said to Don one evening, "Oh, this is ridiculous. Let's just get married." The wedding was two and a half weeks later (that is a separate story, and no, I wasn't pregnant).

By the way, we were both students, and it never even occured to us that Don would buy me an engagement ring (no money, and only for two weeks anyhow).

I do wonder whether there is some kind of inverse proportion between early romance and long, happy partnerships. I know one person - yeah, yeah, a real statistical sample - whose marriage ended partly because her husband always wanted to do romantic things like go to the forest and pick mushrooms (on Friday afternoon!) but never lifted a finger to help her with the house or the children. Give me mutual consideration over romance any time. Although I do admit that I wouldn't mind having both!

Sara

So, do we now get to hear how your mother reacted when she got the good news? I attended the wedding of a Jewish friend of mine recently - the first time I had been to a Jewish wedding - and one of the defining things about the wedding was just how spectacularly happy the groom's mother was that her (early to mid thirties) son was finally getting married. Jewish mothers are in reality probably not greatly different from any other kind of mother in this regard - my mother would certainly be delighted beyond words if I got married - but somehow they seem to have a little bit or a reputation in this regard.

Or perhaps it is just that I am oddly familiar with these kinds of cliches due to seeing too many films about the being young and Jewish in New York experience.

Michael: My mother Z"L SCREAMED when we told her. I mean she let loose such a cry of joy that my ears are still ringing. Sort of like the continuing echo of the big bang. More to come.

Sara: I am profoundly uncomfortable with grand romantic gestures. The more romance--the shorter the marriage. For romance usually fills in for more mature emotions like love and loyalty.

What a wonderful, humorous blog. Thanks to Lucianne.dot for directing me here. I look forward to the continuing saga.

Robert,
what a beutiful story!
I was proposed to very officially, but it certainly was very romantic to a young girl. It was New Year's eve. We went to see a Broadway play. When we came out, we went for dinner near Times Square and when we came out it was almost midnight. We set in the car and watched the ball drop. When the ball hit the bottom, he popped the question. I eagerly said yes. We were both elated.
Of course, this was in our previous lifetime, before our daughter's death. However, I thank Hashem every day that we have each other.
Thank G-d you and Karin have the same thing. May you continue till 120.
Surie

Robert,
What a great read!
It brings up such great memories.
It's uncanny how many stories are similar. In the spring of '71 Beth was trying to decide whether she should go to Israel. I basically said that it would be difficult to get married if she did that, and that was it. We didn't announce until months later.

Her father at some point pulled me aside and asked if "my intentions were honorable?" I answered: "You mean I have a choice?" And we've been close ever since.

david

Ah, romance without the large romantic gestures!

My husband pulled out an advice column of some sort that had a checklist of things you should consider when looking for a spouse. I took one look at the content and asked "Is this a hint, or something?" He looked sheepish, and I said something like "Okay".

Still going strong 18 years later!

Hermom: Sounds like a lovely proposal from the always wonderful Mr. Hermom, though I assume he was not able to get down on one knee in the car. By the way, does anybody know where that ritual came from? I'd love to explore its origins.

David C: That's a nice and sneaky proposal. Nice to know that I'm not the only one out there who does stuff like that. I have yet to blog about my "asking permission" from Karen's father. It was, er, fun.

::sniff::

::sniff::

This is so beautiful!

::sniff::

Great story, Robert. I don't want to say that we are similar, because we probably aren't, but we seem to share many of the same experiences. Reading you is making me remember many of my own. I don't recall "proposing" to my wife, either. It seems like one day, we were just "engaged."

As for the ring...I'm sure you have a good explanation. All I can say is, maybe no ring at all is better than a cheap ring your friend helped you get in a back room somewhere with the money you made playing a gig.

As always, hanging on each word.

Sarah: Come on, stop crying... you're making a scene... people are looking... I'm running out of tissues... Hey, Karen wasn't crying!

Psychotoddler: (I have to tell you, typing that name/title/whatever really makes me uncomfortable.) Anyway, was my no-ring beetter tha some cheap back room scrap of carbon? Karen will have to answer that.

You can call me Steve.

My first proposal was in a suite at The Plaza, one knee and all. Less than 2 months later, I was once again the owner of a ring and happily (in retrospect) my bachelorhood.

My wife, Fernanda, is from Colombia, with all her family but her Dad outside of the country. Late June '04 she had her closest female cousin visiting for three weeks. Two weeks before her cousin left, the idea came to me in the morning. That night, I asked her "So, what are you doing next Friday?"

Down to City Hall on Centre Street we went, with cousin, Dad and my immediate family in tow. Followed by champagne at the flowing fountain in the plaza park nearby.

I still can't believe it.

(OK so she's not talking to me today, but, my apology notwithstanding, I think I deserve it. :)

Nice post, keep up the good work.

I told my husband about this entry and how everyone wrote in about their various non-proposals, and he reminded me that we didn't have a proper proposal until after we already knew we were getting married. He also claims that he only proposed then because I was expecting it...which is probably true. When you know, you know, and a proposal is not necessary!

I fantasize about someday proposing to the woman of my dreams in some cleverly romantic way but don't think I could.
It's not my embedded cynicism, for a change. I think when you're so hyperaware of the movies you risk the unfortunate side effect that those all-important dramatic moments in life feel like a parody. Perversely, life becomes a cheap imitation of art.


Don't get me wrong. I still pine to propose in the ambiance of a beautiful, romantic backdrop, but I would do so without the contrived language or sets. Diluting such a precious moment with an excessively flowery overture seems disingenuous. No one talks or acts like that in real life. It's cheesy. Even if my prospective wife wouldn't roll her eyes or burst out laughing at such a rote cliche, I would. ...Yet for some reason i still have that fantasy.

Is it so wrong to desire some romance? My boyfriend and I are quite comfortable with each other but a little effort in that department would be a lovely thing. Fine. It's true. I watch too many soap operas, but still! ;)

Great entry, Robert. Loved it! You are very lucky Karen allowed you to get away with a "non" proposal. Needless to say, I will not be showing this blog entry to the bf.

Esther: Romance. Ok. Here goes. The thing is... it's not real. It's false. The couples who go on romantic vacations, romantic dates, romantic whatevers--they're miserable! It's because they can't face real life together so they have to construct this romantic... thing and it's soooo destructive. Oh, if you have a solid love together, then romance comes along naturally, but when you have to work at it? Run for the hills, or the next relationship.

As you can tell, I don't write for the soaps.