Did you ever notice how close in spelling the words "alter"/"altar" are?

One means "to change; to become different."
The other means "a raised structure on which sacrifices are offered in worship".

When one undergoes a nose job or any kind of body part job for cosmetic, rather than purely medical reasons, they are in essence sacrificing part of their identity.

Pearl: Here I must disagree. I know several girls who have not given up their identities at all. In fact, one could argue they are more "themselves" than they have ever been for they are not forever fixated on one specific point of anatomy.

Perhaps I speak as someone who never had a nose job, nor felt the need to have one, but my nose is certainly not a cute, pert one, either.

But it is part of me, of who I am.

I just think that "sacrificing" in this case means giving up a feature that is associated with you, a feature that you were born with, that Hashem had designs on.

I don't disagree with you; I'm certain that some, if not most, females rest easier with their transformations and learn to love this new person who looks out at them from the mirror each day.

My mother got a nose job at the age of 30. Even with her not-so-perfect nose, she still managed to snag an incredibly handsome man (my father!)and together they had 2 children. It was something that bothered her all her life...but, she always told me, her large nose made her develop her personality...and guess what?...people saw beyond her nose, straight through to her soul. I always admired the fact that she waited until such a late age to do this, because I knew it had nothing to do with developing who she was. But it definitely freed her from something that bothered her all her life. People dye hair, lose weight, change styles everyday...(people like me!)So, who am I to judge what makes a person feel better, secure, or just "more" of who they are...simply put...it's fun...I like seeing myself with brown, rather than grey hair...and I'm one of the least shallow people I know!

addendum...so as to not sound so shallow, might I add, that, although my mother did snag a very handsome man, she saw into his soul, and found a loving family man, a school teacher who impacted many children's lives, a loyal friend, husband, parent, and son.

Randi: The point of the blog is that getting a nose job does not indicate a shallow nature. I'm still amazed that this is even at all controversial. In fact, every Halachic authority I've consulted has come out in favor of a nose job if it benefits the girl's self-confidence, and improves her mental health. Don't worry about coming off shallow, Randi, you least of all.

No one else in my family has my nose, and I always got the "adopted" jokes. I have the ski nose everyone wants. But I always thought it would have more character with a little Roman bump in it. Amusing how none of us are satisfied.

I like big honky Jewish noses on guys though . . . :-)

PS So whatever happened to the Barbra Streisand-inspired acceptance of Jewish standards of beauty?

I think Robert has hit the nail on the head when it comes to the delicate balance between feeling good about yourself in a healthy way and narcissism. Judaism values humility in so many facets of life that it's perhaps easy to scoff at plastic surgery. Now, I've never had a cosmetic surgery or even considered having one, (even though I started going bald at age 16), but I can tell you that when I decided to be "one of those people" who works out every day and watches what he eats all the time 9 1/2 years ago, I began to really feel good about myself in a way I never had. I'm not religious, but I was aware that when I got into tip-top shape I was definitely avoiding the sin of Bal Tascheet, which is the prohibition against wasting the gift of life, (loosely translated). Now, you have to be careful not to make your physical appearance the be-all and end-all, but it's still part of the package. Hey, you don't have to be a fanatic like me, but people who smoke or eat themselves to diabetes or other diseases have got to learn how great they'll feel if they would just take better care. And if plastic surgery can help you achieve the same kind of confidence, especially during those teenage years, than I'm all for it too.

P.S., not long after I became an exercise nut, I met the woman who would become my wife. I'm sure I exuded the kind of confidence during that meeting that came from feeling good about my appearance.

Jake: Thanks so much for your articulate comment.

Delicate balance. Yes, nicely stated. The Rambam, Maimonides says in "Hilchos Dayos" that in life we should strive for Derech Ha-emtzai, loosely translated this means, we should always try walking the middle path, and avoid extremes. This certainly applies here.

Jake's point about the natural tension that exists between narcisissm and healthy self-esteem is certainly key to my argument. There are however plastic surgeries that I would consider Halachically, according to Jewish law, excessive. As far as I know however these kinds of surgeries are not pervasive in my community. Yet.

I once dated a young lady perpetually obsessed about the size of her breasts. The insecurity she felt, being 23 and fairly small, was incredible.

For reasons not associated with her boobies (memo: ranting about Catholics when you're dating an Irish guy is a no-no), we broke up. She said, however, that as soon as she made enough money, she was getting them done. I'm pretty sure that she has done so by now.

My guess is that her REAL personality could not develop because of this obsessive insecurity. It's not her fault she had the issues, but if you've got them, I don't begrudge a person altering themselves physically to be more confident.

I have lousy vision and wear glasses. If I wasn't so afraid, I'd get that LASIK surgery. I wore contacts for a few years, and I was a totally different, ridiculously confident and a much happier person, so I know how important these "shallow" things are.

Sean: Thanks so much for your articulate note. I too have incredibly terrible vision and have worn glasses since the age of seven. And like you I am tempted by LASIK, but the idea of surgery on my one and only eyeballs, as lousy as they are, well, it's just too scary. But oh how I wish...

I am with Pearl on this one.

I find it sad and distressing when young girls are so unhappy with a body part that they would resort to drastic means (such as surgery). I would hope that they would love themselves for who they are, not what their nose looks like.

Robert, I must say I was surprised to read that you condone this kind of thing. I always thought of cosmetic surgery as, well, cosmetic, and I also thought that surfaces don't really have much to do with the inner reality. I can see where I could be wrong - after all, don't Chazal (the Sages) say that a person's surface actions eventually affect his inner motivations (either "mitoch she'lo lishma, ba lishma", or "ha'adam nifal l'fi pe'ulato")? Personnally, I always wanted a nose job when I was younger, and my parents told me that I could get one when I turned 18. Boy, was I looking forward to that date. Then I read a book (In the Beginning, by Chaim Potok) that included a scene in which the main character gets a nose job because he had been dropped on his face as a baby and had some resulting health problems. Anyway, after reading that scene which described all the sounds the guy could hear as they worked on his nose, well, I reconsidered my position, and have decided to live with my nose the way it is. I later found out that two of my non-immediate family members have had nose jobs, and I was really surprised... and happy that I decided not to go through with it. My nose is still not my favourite body-part, but it's part of me, and I've learned to live with it, and even to appreciate it... in certain light... from certain angles...

During Friday question and answer sessions with the menahel of my day school, the two most popular questions, asked over and over again were:

"Is it possible to be frum and be an actor?"
"Is it halachically ok to get a nose job?"

The answer to the first was always hilarious - that someone who was on Dragnet had become a ba'al teshuva and was now one of the top actors in Hollywood. I had never heard of the guy.

The answer to the second was always that it was allowed if it would help someone feel good about themselves, as you write. Still...I am with Pearl and Stacey and Sarah on this one. It is sad that these girls feel the pressure in the first place and cannot learn to appreciate their natural beauty. There will always be something you are not happy about with your body...

Dear McAryeh:

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response to our discussion. I'd like to emphasize that this blog, Seraphic Nose Job(s) is not theoretical. Karen and I are not pondering nose jobs in general, nor are we writing about abstract girls.

Karen and I are writing about young girls we have known since they were in diapers. We know their parents, their grandparents. These are not shallow vain people. They are frum; they are charitable, in fact, they are among the finest people in a community filled with outstanding people.

We have charted the physical and emotional lives of these girls for eighteen years. These are young women who cried themselves to sleep for far too many nights. These are girls who worked hard at traditional therapy for years and years and believe it or not, no matter how long they talked, no matter what Freudian gems they uncovered their noses stubbornly remained the same size; the mirror they looked into continued to cruelly shoot back the same painful reflection.

Surgery was the last option, not the first.

These are girls who were chronically depressed; these are girls who failed to see what you call their "natural beauty." These are girls who were not living their lives -- but enduring it.

And now, post surgery? These girls are happy. It's as simple as that. At weddings they no linger in the hallways, no longer shrink against the wall and refuse to dance. At night, these young women sleep contentedly instead of weeping themselves into exhaustion.

Funny thing, they no longer need incredibly expensive and useless therapy three times a week.

Another funny thing: these lovely young women have no problem appreciating their inner beauty now that their outer shell is no longer "hideous."

Now it's true, I will admit that these young women have failed to appreciate their "natural beauty," but I'm certain that if they work real hard -- they will manage to get over it.

Again, thanks so much for your thoughts.

Robert, I commented yesterday to someone after reading your post that one doesn't often hear of men having rhinoplasty for cosmetic reasons.

Have you encountered any male in your home community, or even within the Hollywood community that has done this surgery? Are men perceived any differently if they have this surgery, do you think? (no references to Cyrano allowed!)

Pearl: I know you asked Robert, but I actually have an answer here, and it is funny you should ask - one of my non-immediate relatives who had the nose job? My uncle! And his was a "family monstrosity" before that (I've seen pictures, and besides, two of his kids inherited the nose - one of whom is ironically one of the most beautiful women I know), so I think that counts as cosmetic!

Pearl:

Yes, several young men have had nose jobs and their lives have improved beyond measure. The girls all felt that the boys were "cute" before, but now "they're just so much happier."

Pearl,
If I may step in...I have known plenty of boys, men who have had nose jobs...the issues have been exactly as Robert described for these girls. One teenage boy I know, quite popular, good student, charitable, etc. but just hated his BIG NOSE. So he had it fixed. I imagine it gave him a bit more confidence where girls are concerned, but is that so bad? Two others I know, had broken noses, that completely changed the shape of their noses...and wanted them fixed. But I think, in general, the issue is the same for boys and girls...

I do think the biggest concern about plastic surgery today is, where does it stop. A nose tweak, undereye bag removal (something Clinton could benefit from), a nip a tuck, breast implants at 16, rear-end implants, facelifts until you look like a mask (Michael Jackson)...where does it end...it can become quite dangerous, as anything can when taken to the extreme. It just seems that "the extreme" is where we are headed in this society, and that is sad.

No matter what any male says, it is women who are their own harshest critics. And in the end I suspect that women alter their looks more for themselves than for the approving gaze of any man.

You are so dead on with these two statements. Very impressive how keenly you get it. I say anything that allows anyone to feel better about themselves can't be wrong. And who are we to sit in judgement of them for wanting to do it? Live and let live... gotta love freedom of choice. Great post, Robert.

My sister had nose job when she was 16. I was married and had a small kid and remember being mildly annoyed that my mother had allowed/condoned/possibly encouraged it. But she did have a sizable shnozz.

Anyway, she looks great, if a little generic. But I think she's been a little different since then. Maybe it has more to do with growing up than the surgery, but I always thought she was more fun before the nose job. She seemed less tomboyish and more serious afterwards.

Steve:

Girls have a tendency to become less tomboyish and more serious when they grow up. It's just the natural order of things.

For a man of "words" your answer was so succinct and to the point. No cause and effect relationships can be established there. Good job!

I have been wanting to get one forever, it has been truly disturbing me for YEARS. The thing is though, for starters I am a male and secondly I have not been able to muster up the courage to tell my parents. My self confidence is truly lacking because of this accursed thing. It's not that I am afraid they will go crazy I am just afraid that they think I am hiding my identity or something.I am NOT. What should I do save up the money and just get it done confront them any advice would be helpful.....

Hey Joe, I'm in the same boat as you. Overall, I'm a pretty girl,but with my large nose and the bump on it, people look at nothing else. I can just feel their eyes concentrating on it whenever they talk to me. I've wanted surgery for 5 years now, but because I'm 16 I need my parent's permission. How can a teenager approach their parents about this subject?! All my life my parents have told me I'm pretty, but my peers have said I'm ugly. I'm scared to tell my parents of my desire because it's likely I'll be totally misunderstood. What am I to do?!

I think getting a nose job is not worth it it's very risky for me to get one and asians have flat noses but I doesn't matter and be careful when you get one.

umm hi sofia, im a teenager too, and i had to approach my parents with the same request. my sister is much more beautiful than i am, and im constantly comparing myself to her. one day, my mom took a picture of us, and i just couldnt handle it. my nose is so huge, and i just turned away and started crying. at that vulnerable moment my mom saw how much it was affecting me and told me that she would talk to my dad about the surgery. the best advice i can give you is just to let your parents know how much it hurts. they will always tell you that you dont need it, but there not the ones that have to live with it ya know?

Hey, I just got a nose job last week. It has been a tough recovery. But i've been strong and patient. I can't say whether i like the outcome or not because i'm still very swolen. And my doctor actually told me to avoid the mirror for a few weeks because I wouldnt recognise myself or be happy with how my nose looks currently. I do hope that everything turns out alright and my nose will be how I wanted it to be.

Now the reason I got this surgery, was soley for me and my self-esteem. People will tell you you're beautiful, but if you don't believe that yourself, nothing matters. Beauty is something that is important; a gem that is sacred and needs to be taken care of. I have a great personality, and nose surgery did not affect it negatively.

If you are unhappy with your appearance, there is always something you can do about it. Our face is what the world sees. And it's important to put your best face forward, especially when it can boost your confidence and increase happiness. However shallow this might sound: life is a beauty contest.

Sandra:

Thanks so much for writing. You sound like your doing just fine. Stay in touch and keep us informed as to your progress.