I have heard via KRLA that the Gov. is suppose to render a decision by this afternoon.

Let's hope he does the right think and let stand the decision that this killer be put down.

Shabbat Shalom to all!!

"The 51 year old maintains he's innocent and his case has attracted attention from black celebrities in the US like rapper Snoop Dogg and the Reverend Jesse Jackson, and this week South Africa's former first lady, Winnie Mandela, spoke in his favour.

In the past decade he's said to have redeemed himself by writing a number of books against America's gang-culture.

As a result he's been nominated, more than once, for the Nobel Peace prize."

He's redeemed himself? He's earned nominations for the Nobel Peace prize? Who, exactly, has been behind the nominations?

Okay, give him some runner-up prize, then have the county clerk announce, "Power on" and "Hit the switch"!

Jailhouse repentance is worth less than a dime. The Talmud also says that one cannot really be seen as repentant until he refrains from sin when presented with the exact same circumstances. Being in jail means someone is being punished, not repenting.

But even if Williams is truly repentant, there is little doubt he is guilty of terrible crimes. Aren't there a few, no maybe hundreds, of people on jail who are actually innocent? Sure, we're talking maybe 1% of the whole incarcerated population, but if I were a Hollywood celebrity, those would be the people I would champion.

(Incidentally, I feel the same way about Jonathan Pollard. He's guilty of the crimes he was convicted of. End of story. It's a shame he's getting such harsh punishment, but I'll save my money, tears, and efforts for innocent Jews, thank you).

And hey, helping the possibly innocent can still lead to the publicity the celebrities crave. In fact, a DNA-cleared convict was just released this week and was given loads of coverage on CNN. He was even African-American. I wonder if Jamie Foxx stood up for him.

The problem I see with minority groups, Jews included, is that we decided that since we've been wronged for so long, even our GUILTY community members are really innocent in a relative kind of way. This is the kind of thinking that led to all the support O.J. received from truly poor people who should not have given a darn. It's also why some abusive Rabbis get away with crimes time after time.

Few things in our public life can be as noxious as the fashionable cause. At best, it tends to be superficial and ill-considered. At worst, it is simply appalling. Stanley “Tookie” Williams is the fashionable cause of the moment, and he is no exception.

A phalanx of celebrities urge clemency for Williams, including Snoop Dogg (who beat his own murder rap in 1996), Bianca Jagger, Susan Sarandon, and Tim Robbins.

Oy.

I agree with you. And what about the victims? Why are they always forgotten in the aftermath? What about the mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and children who have a hole in their lives due to this killer?

Good Shabbos to you, too.

P.S. Robert, have you seen Pride & Prejudice yet. I am going this weekend. Can't wait!

I hate to make a correction but he is actually going to die next week on the 13th not in 2 weeks

Lance:

I have the radio on. Waiting. Waiting.

Pearl:

Is that you!? I'm in total shock! You commented on something other than "How I Married Karen." Wow.

Jake:

Williams says he is repentant for starting The Crips. He denies the murder chargers. Calls it bad karma. But the evidence is absolutely overwhelming. That this barbarian is still alive 24 years after the crimes, well, that is a crime.

Brian:

Note that all these supporters of Williams are the exact same people who I refer to in an earlier post as "Murderous Peaceniks."

Stacey:

We hope to see the film this weekend. Did you know that there are two versions? In America there is a post marriage kiss. In England, no kiss.

Ari:

Thanks for the correction. Hell has waited too long.

Stacey...you are so right...how many lives have been irreparably damaged because of him? I find it appauling that the NAACP is standing up in support of him as well.

I look forward to reading what you think of the movie. let us know if you like it better than the BBC version

No, I didn't realize that (about the kiss). I cannot wait to see the movie tomorrow. Have been looking forward to it for quite some time!

Tookie should be toast. Signed one of those liberal could be conservative Jews. ;)

Regardless of the Talmud (which is not consulted in American jurisprudence) I don't believe in capital punishment. Large-scale gang criminals were handled early in the 20th century by isolation at Alcatraz. It should have been reopened when Tookie was first incarcerated, and even now would provide a best-case solution. Provided, of course, that email, cell phone, and all other access is blocked.

I don't believe one can effectively complete redemption on his own terms. This man has never quit the gang or told authorities what he knows about gang activities. Nor has he had the tattoos removed. These are the criteria for ending gang activity in the real world, and it's hard to see any of his efforts as having any lasting positive effect unless and until he does those things.

While I also agreed that the courts' decisions should stand, I suspect that evil will still be glamorized - watch out for Saint Tookie the Martyr, bigger than Tupac and Biggie combined.

Tookie should be toast. Signed one of those liberal could be conservative Jews. ;)

Jack asked me to let you know that this was his comment. He made a mistake when putting his name up.

I am for the death penalty applied to career criminals..no reservations about. HOWEVER..our juditial system, well exploited for our lawyers makes the capital punishment dangerous for the rest of the citizen. Money and smart lawyers can perform miracles. If you don't believe this, ask O.J.
On the other hand, a prosecutor will try his best to send, whoever is charged, with a crime to the gallops. Innocent or guilty is not an issue for them. After all the main goal of both sides lawyers is to win the case..Am I wrong?

Carlos:

Thanks so much for your comment. You are correct, lawyers try to win, that is the way the system works. As for your notion that only career criminals desrve the death penalty, I have to disagree with you. Lacey Peterson's husband Scott was not a career criminal, yet the murder he committed, was heinous and premediated and if not for copping a plea he would and should have received the ultimate penalty. So I believe the punishment should fit the crime.

Does the Talmud also not say that a Sanhedrin
that put to death more than one person in 70 years was considered an unjust Sanhedrin?

Sean:

This is one of the most commonly partially quoted lessons in the Talmud. The "70-year" comment is actually just one voice in a multi-faceted argument. Another strong opinion says that a court that executes more than one person every SEVEN years is "butcher-like," etc.

But I've always interpreted this Talmudic discourse as a commentary on society in general. While the Rabbis never seem to doubt that people guilty of capital crimes must be executed, there is real shame from the fact that the crimes are being committed in the first place, and that the existing authorities are clearly failing at some level if executions become somewhat commonplace. In other words, maybe the ancient bet din was failing at punishing petty criminals who later become serious felons. Maybe it was turning too much of a blind eye to economic injustice, etc. Excusing the crimes of killers can't ever be allowed, but even one murderer in a society should force everyone to do some self-examination. Just because we rightly refuse to show mercy to brutal killers doesn't mean it's time to be smug. Smugness has become the true affliction of religious people nowadays, something the great Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz often points out. Anti-death penalty advocates rightly point out that capital punishment means innocent people, (even if it's a very small number), will be executed. That is a tragedy, but so are car accidents and industrial maiming. We can't shut it all down because of even the most horrific infrequent mistakes. We do need to spend more time and money trying to get it right, however.

Even today, I would hope both pro and anti-death penalty advocates would agree that the real goal should be to reduce the NEED for the death penalty. For that to happen, we'll need to 1) punish the petty criminals harshly so they don't get worse 2) show everyone a little more clearly what opportunities they have 3) do something about the epidemic of mental illness in this country and 4) stop glorifying violence

Finally, I want to make one comment about mercy. I am not a very religious person, but I know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe that a capital criminal can only be redeemed in the next world if he/she pays for the crime in this world. The only way to do that is 1) be truly repentant and 2) be executed. It sounds harsh, but this is pretty much clear in each of those three religions' teachings. So, in other words, execution for the capital criminal is the most merciful thing you can do for him/her IF you believe in an afterlife. Even if only 1% of executed criminals truly become repentant before the lethal injection, I think it's the right thing to do.

Sean:

The Talmud actually calls that kind of court a "bloody court." Yet, the Sages of the Talmud also recognized that at times society was at a crisis point and serious action had to be taken to stem the tide of evil. The most famous example was when Shimon ben Shetach sentenced scores of witches to be executed in a single day to stem the tide of idolotry sweeping through Israel.

With regards to beit din executions:

We must remember that the requirements for beit din to be able to execute some one were hard to meet.

2 witnesses must warn the person
The person must ignore the warnings
The warning must include what the punishment will be
The witnesses must "kosher", non relatives, ect.

The point I am making is this: crimes do happen, but for a crime to occur and all the requirements above have been met, is rare. that is why a once in 70 year occurrence is called a bloodbath.

Ari:

Thanks for clarifying. And of course, let's not forget that capital punishment as a punishment is a given in th Torah and of course in the Talmud.

The Gemara in makkos talks about witnesses who conspire to testify falsely to have a person put to death -- they are put to death themselves. It's been a while since I've studied it, but the impression I got was that it was easier to have these false witnesses excecuted than a murderer (the criteria being so stringent). Now why is it that the Gemara comes down so harshly on them? They didn't spill blood. They merely called for blood (and not necessarily innocent blood) to be spilled.

But then I suppose that I have to take into account that the family of an accidentally murdered man are, under certain circumstances, allowed to avenge the death of that man by killing the accidental killer. So it's not like the Gemara is opposed to the death penalty.

Still. A man is about to die. We show respect to the Egyptians who were drowned -- and they tried to kill us. Is Tookie a reformed man? Is he playing the system? Doesn't matter. He is a man and he is about to die. Hopefully his death will have meaning. Maybe his death will be, as you suggest, a warning and justice fulfilled. If the sages held that the death penalty is justice then who am I to argue? But a man is about to die. Certainly there are those who are treating this as a cause celebre. For them I have little time. But if among them there are people who know him -- how can I hold it against them to campaign for his life to be spared? Calling such a person, even if you consider them misguided, 'cruel' is harsh. We are not putting down a dog. A man is about to die. He may deserve it. It may be the right thing. But we should still hesitate ... and choose our words very carefully at such a moment.

Sean:

Thanks so much for your comment. Let me just deal with what I think is the central point of your thought. Calling these people "cruel."

I call them cruel because they have no time or thought for those murdered by Williams. I call them cruel because, in my opinion, they agitate not just for Willims, but for any murderer. They are just against the death penalty. And for me that means they are aganst any kind of true justice.

Yet at the same time all thes epeople who are against the death penalty are threatning to riot if Williams is executed.

The Torah says: "Tzedek, Tzedek tirdof." Justice, justice you shall seek.

I take no pleasure in seeing a man die. I take pleasure in justice. As do all good men.

Sean:
"EDIM ZOMEMIM" are punished for what they tried to do falsely to someone else. Their punishment is spelled out explicitly in the torah "VASITEM LO KAASHER ZAMAM".
In Jewish law 2 witnesses can accomplish anything, they can make a mamzer, cause somone to lose all of their worldy possesions, and even bring a death sentance on a person.

If they were not held responsible for their actions what would prevent corrupt people from going on a crime spree with their words.
This is IMHO why punishing the witnesses is easier than punishing a murderer. Similiar to checks and balances.

I would like to add that my friend Ariel, Z'L could have explained this concept 10X better than I have. He was a Talmudic scholar.

Ari:

You did a fine job of explaining. I think Ariel Z'L would agree with everything you just said.

looks like the execution will go on like planned.

the GOVERNATOR had this to say about Tookie:

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote less than 12 hours before the execution. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

the smartest thing he has done or said while in office to date! (IMHO)

Ari:

Thanks for your comment.

We who support the death penalty must all be careful not gloat or celebrate but to scrupulously maintain a dignified posture as befits such a grave occassion. I am, however, heartened that justice will at last be served. It is my hope that the families of those slain will achieve some measure of peace.

'We who support the death penalty must all be careful not gloat or celebrate but to scrupulously maintain a dignified posture as befits such a grave occassion.' This was my contention all along. Thank you for expressing it so elegantly.

My final word on the matter:

In Makkos it says:

'A Sanhedrin that issues a sentence of execution once in 7 years is a murderous tribunal. R. Eleazer ben Azariah said: Once in 70 years. R. Tarfon and R. Akiva said: If we were members of the Sanhedrin, no man would be executed. To this, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel replied: Yes; and they would increase shedders of blood in Israel.'

This is tzedek.

In Sanhedrin it says:

'R. Chiyya bar R. Ashi said in the name of R. Chisda: The man who was led out to be executed is given a grain of frankinsense in a goblet of wine, in order to make him numb in keeping with "Give strong drink to him that is about to perish, and wine to the bitter in soul." We have been taught theat the noblewomen of Jerusalem volunteered to provide the wine.'

This I would say is tzedek tzedek. These women display exceptional virtue.

Sean:

Thanks so much. Debate is at the heart of the Talmud. In the end, the opponents of capital punishment are in the minority--nevertheless their words are still Torah.

Perhaps someone can do a Samuel on the Left and ask them like he asked David whether they're against the death penalty in principle or merely because it's a fashionable person getting executed?

I mean, what if some "pro-life zealot" gunned down 4 abortion doctors in 1979, never apologized, never admitted he did it, but 'wrote childrens books warning youngsters of gun violence'? Do you think the same Hollywood stars and Reverends of the religions of "what's happening now" would be working so hard on clemency?

We all know they'd be calling for the execution to be "hung till half dead then drawn and quartered" and NOT 'lethal injection'.

It's this selective 'mercy' and overlooking salient facts about the case (he never admitted it, he never apologized) that proves their hypocrisy. There's just something about the Left's need to pardon and free known criminals while turning a completely blind eye to completely innocent victims of violence that chills me.

John:

Thnaks for your comment. You bring up an interesting question. As any reader of this blog well knows, I believe the left is a totalitarian movement bent on crushing human rights. I mean look at their heroes: Marx, Lenin, Mao, Arafat, Castro. Need I say more?

Stacey, above, 3rd comment or so, asked WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS?

yes, three of them were Yang Yen-i, aged 76, RIEP, rest in eternal peace, his wife Yang Tsai-shai, 63, RIEP and their daughter, Lin Yee-chee, 43, who ran a hotel in Los Angeles, immigrants from Taiwan......

1979....

2005.....

As Robert knows, I am a liberal on most things, and disagree with much of the conservative rightwing issues voiced here, and we agree to disagree, but on cap punishment, I am in favor.

And I am also pro-Taiwan and anti-commieChina!
And pro Gong Li and Zhang Yiyi....

nominations for a nobel prize, my eye, anyone can get nominated Pearl, all you need is some professor at any uni in the world to send in a letter. meaningless. yet the media kept harping on that Nobel thing. totally meaningless.

danny

This morning CNN was asking the question “What did we gain by Tookie William’s execution?” The CNN anchor says the coverage of the execution was “gripping.” She talked about Tookie looking up in frustration because they couldn’t get the IV into his arm. Somehow the anchor didn’t mention the look in the eyes of the couple that Williams shot while they were laying on their stomachs in a back room of their small hotel.

OK … I’ll tell you what was gained by the execution. First, Tookie Williams is no more. Second, the sentence of a court of law has been carried out. We have a government of law, and when the government follows that law, as it did in this execution, our entire society benefits.
In the midst of this media orgy of sympathy for Tookie, a short review of just some of his criminal history might be in order:
Since the press won’t bring you up to date, perhaps we can help out. Tookie was convicted of murdering 7-11 clerk Albert Owens by shooting him twice in the back with a shotgun. Tookie bragged to his friends afterward that “you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him,” and then laughed about doing it.

Then there was the Yang family. Tsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin were immigrants from Taiwan…and they ran a motel in South Central Los Angeles. That was, until Tookie came on the scene. On March 11, 1979, Tookie kicked down the door to the motel office and shot all three and killed them, again with a shotgun.

So off Tookie went to death row. But if you listen to the media, we’re supposed to believe Tookie became an angel in prison, right? Wrong…let’s take a look at the Tookster’s prison record and his “conversion.” But wait…if you listen to the Hollywood left, we’re supposed to believe Tookie was a model prisoner…he’s reformed! He’s renounced his killing ways! Not if you look at the facts.

In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up…and told a guard “you’ll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do…one of these days I’ll trick you boy.” Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate…and didn’t stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then “you are looking around too much and that’s not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference.” Sounds reformed to me. But there’s more…1986…he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991…Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993. Get the idea?