Robert:

Im afraid people like Spielberg think much more about themsleves, and think they are doing a public service.

I lost all respect for the man.....he is delusional.
And as you pointed out this type of thinking gets alot of Jews killed.

Lastly, will the organized Jewish community publicly criticize this garbage film; Or will they sit on their hands because it is the mighty Spielberg?

Lance:

Like most Hollywood Jews, Spielberg is an off the chart leftist. He prefers his Jews dead, as in "Schindlers List." As for the Jewish Community, he will be roundly critisized by the Orthodox who are now firmly conserative Republicans. As for all the rest, he will naturally be applauded for the conservative and Reform Jews, well, their real religion is leftist politics.

Robert:

Interesting that you bring up the other movements.....As one who was raised in the "Conservative" movement....I can tell you that your observations are correct.

I basically was booted out of my USY chapter after my initial summer at YULA. The counselors made it known they didnt want my type as part of their group.

As they debate who their next Chancellor might be, the true debate is whether they will bend to the whims of the left ...especially regarding gay Rabbis.

As I told one prominent Conservative rabbi, who was disgruntled with the left leaning lurch of his movement....that it was best to jump ship before the titanic hits its iceberg.

Iceberg.....dead ahead.

Lance:

The Conservative and Reform movements have reached a crisis point and they know it. All studies show that their children do not marry Jews nor remain Jewish. Hence they must conclude that something they are doing is wrong. What to do? Admit that all their silly politically correct stances are built on ramparts of sand? I don't think so. Too many careers and jobs are on the line. Watch for what my wife the psychologist calls: a world of cognitive dissonance.

As someone who grew up Conservative and remains so because 1) I'm not going to sit behind a mechitza and be told I can't be on the bima, 2) nor am I going to do half the prayers in English and feel like I am sitting in church - as Robert knows I am a hawkish liberal in the Joe Leiberman mode. There are a fair number of us in the Conservative movement, I think less so in Reform. And I've met my share of frum antiwar types, so the line isn't as clear as you think.

Then there are former lefty turned neo-con Jews like Roger Simon and the blogger known as Neo-neocon and Norm Geras, none of whom would set foot inside a synagogue except as a guest at someone's simcha.

I'm getting tired of snotty liberal-Jew-bashing by Orthodox, and I'll tell you this: every congregation I've ever been in has a lot of raised-frum members who didn't like something about their Orthodox life, but wanted to stay actively Jewish. There are as many Jews going in our direction from your communities, as going the other way. And I think that "cultural exchange" is healthy, we all have a lot to learn from each other. Maybe at some point some of you will realize it.

I think this is what's going to happen: Judaism will evolve into two "movements" - those which allow women and gays full participation, and those which don't. And both will argue their stance from Torah. I already see this happening in NYC, with many traditional minyans which are almost identical in practice except for the role of women, all justified by various responsa.

The outgoing chancellor of JTS recently said that he sees the biggest problem of the conservative mevement as having so many highly educated and observant young adult Jews who don't want to join the usual synagogue because it's too dumbed down; they would rather make their own minyans and daven and learn together, which they are all capable of, than endure forced passivity in a pew surrounded by 3x/yr Jews.

I think this is a very good problem to have. Most of these folks are NOT going to become Orthodox, they are going to eventually join those stuffy suburban shuls for the Hebrew school and other institutional features, and they are going to raise the level of learning and tefilla. As a friend of mine said, who has raised 2 kids like I am describing: "that means we must have done something right." Yes, we did.

Finally, most of this liberal-Jew-bashing is based on reading a few articles, and often getting the facts wrong. I see this on the frum blogs all the time, none of the bashers actually hang out with conservative Jews or daven in our shuls, so how would you know?

(And I know all the arguments about women on the bima pro and con so please don't rehash them here, especially in that condescending tone that assumes if I were only acquainted with your rationale I would change my mind; it's a waste of your time and mine.)

Okay, I cna't resist pointing this out: Robert, you just said my blog was one of the smartest around. Then within 5 sentences you are sneering at my people. You know I'm somewhat observant but not frum, if you read my blog. So you know who you're talking about. So....... who's exhibiting cognitive dissonance here?

Yehudit, thank you for putting in a good word for Jews who affiliate other-than-Orthodox. I am a Reform Jew and reasonably knowledgeable. I was raised frum (Orthodox), so I know how much I do not know! But I too have no plan to sit behind the mechitza. I would like more depth in the services I attend, but I realize the Rabbi must be responsive to the needs of Jews who have very little background in Yiddishkeit. He does a good job of including many traditional prayers and there is always a thought-provoking d'var Torah.

I do wish frum Jews would realize Reform Judaism is no longer organ music and English prayers.... And with the strong success of NFTY, I see very positive future for Reform Judaism. My kids have a powerful connection to Judaism, strengthened by their education, their shul and youth group affiliation, connection with my parents in Israel, and many other factors.

Dear Judith:

Thanks so much for your, ahem, comment.

I'm sorry that you take offence and perceive me as snotty. My reflections on the Conservative and Reform movements are based on one simple fact: a HUGE number of Conservative and Reformed children and grandchildren do not marry Jewish partners. If we were to count on them for the continuity of the Jewish people, well, we would be dead. It is the Orthodox and Hasidic who assure our survival. Simply based on birth rates that still holds true.

Those are simple facts. Not even open to creative interpretation.

Halachic issues are another discussion entirely. And, surprise, I completely understand and empathize with your discomfort in Orthodox shuls. Guess what? I walk into a shul without a mechitza, a shul where women are wearing pants, a shul where an organ is thumping away, a shul where the Rabbi on Passover gives a sermon about how the Exodus never happened and I feel like--huh?

Anyway: Judith, would you deny that the majority of Conservative and Reformed Jews are far greater believers in Liberal politics than in living Judaism?

Come on, be honest.

As for you and your incredibly smart blog, I read it almost every day. I admire you and learn from you. However, you do stick out like sore thumb in the Conservative movement. I think you would be the first to admit it.

Confession: Okay, usually I do just shoot from the hip. Blather away with my opinions, don't even bother to check facts. I admit it, I'm basically lazy. But here I do speak from knowledge. I know many fine (and some not so fine) people who are quite active in the Conservative movement here in Los Angeles. Some are in rapture over the new directions the movement is taking, others are content, some are confused, and quite a few are leading lives of quiet Halachic desperation and are in despair about the future.

Let me close by asking for your (Gosh, I'm doing this a lot) mechila. The last thing I want to do is offend my Conservative and Reform friends--of whom I have many. (Wow, that sounds soooo 1950's, right out of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?"). And I certainly don't want you, someone I admire enormously, to hate and perceive me as some ignorant religious bigot.

But--you knew that was coming, right? But I still hold with my original premise: the majority of Conservative and Reformed Jews are liberals, and off the cliff lefties, far more passionate about global warming than Torah.

By the way, is it Reformed Judaism or Reform Judaism. I have no idea. I need a Halachiuc ruling.

Robert,
Firstly, I admit, I am not as knowledgable or well-read on this subject as I should be...so what I say comes from my heart (and will probably get me in trouble). Secondly, I swore I wouldn't get involved in one of these postings again...but, I must ask the question...what is so wrong with caring about issues other than torah? Where did this attitude of "if you don't believe as I do, keep your mouth shut" come from? I don't mean that towards you, but, rather, toward this entire country in general. Some of the most "religious" people I know...both Jewish and Christian, are the most unscrupulous people I know. Reading your blog and others over the last 9 months has really opened my eyes, sadly, to the polarization of one sect of Judiasm from another.

Wow...It's amazing the different directions this blog can take.

As I mentioned earlier I was raised in the Conservative Movement. I was extremely active in USY...back in the late 70's...in what was one of the most vibrant chapters. However, an interesting phenomena occurred. Either young people like myself became atteacted to the more Traditional side of Judaism....or the others left the the movement, or Judaism altogether. The synagogue I grew up in had to merge to survive....they couldnt keep the young adults since the movement didnt stand for anything.

Yehudit....I feel your pain....However, imagine a young teenager who was on his way to becoming frum...but wanted to join his friends in his last year of USY. I was basically told by the youth leadership to get lost. This is suppose to be a movement dedicated to halacha. But, sadly most Conservative Rabbi's dont give a hoot about halacha or tradition.

This comment doesnt come from prejudice....but someone who has a lifetime of dealing with them.

It is sad but true....and now once their new Chancellor is installed....they will completely fall of the truck.

The founders of the Movement are rolling in their graves. And if you dont believe me aske Prof Sarna in Boston, who basically said the same thing.

Randi:

Gotcha on something other than "How I Married Karen."

What I find interesting is that you and others have truly veered away from my main point, which is that those in the Conservative and Reformed movements are for the most part politically Liberal, to the left, or the extreme left. And that a passion for Torah and Torah values have been replaced by a passion for liberal values.

I mean 85% of the Jews in America voted for Kerry. Those votes did not come from the Orthodox or Hasidic communities. Soooo, who pulled all those levers? Not a tremendous mystery.

Now that I've restated my original premise, let address your excellent question which is: what's wrong with not caring about Torah?

Let's bring up something that you and I have discussed: The death penalty. Right now a bunch of lefties are agitating for the life of a barbarian murderer named Stanley "Tookie" Williams. The Torah is quite clear about what should be done with this man. He must forfeit his life.

If we were to take a poll in an Orthodox shul about the fate of Williams I can guarantee that the death penalty would be demanded for that is justice. Can you say the same for Conservative and Reformed Temples?

I guarantee not.

Why?

Because their values are no longer Torah values but leftist liberal values.

This is just one example, but it serves as a true barometer of most every important cultural issue of our time.

As for all the unscrupulous Jews and Christians you know. What can I say, but that you are hanging out with the wrong people. My invitation for you to come shooting with me and my friends from shul still stands. That way at least you'll meet some really nice people, and have a way of defending yourself from all the creeps you seem to be hanging out with. It's a win-win situation, right?

Randi, if I have offended you--and it seems I've offended lots of people with my post--I ask mechila, forgiveness, from all of you.

But--and here's that "but" again. You all seem to be focusing on issues that I never even brought up.

Finally: I want all "Seraphic Secret" readers to know that Randi and her mother attended the last "Ariel Avrech Memorial Lecture." Randi did this after reading this blog for just a few months. Karen and I were profoundly touched and have considered Randi a true friend ever since.

Randi, you are correct, there are divisions among the Jewish people. But if you study Jewish history you will discover that the divisions we have now are nothing as compared to the violent schisms we have endured in the past. This, believe it or not, is a golden age of Jewish dialogue.

I sincerely hope that we all know who our true enemies are.

Randi,

I'm not answering for Robert.....but I can relate to your comment.

I have been on the receiving end of those very same comments. When I attended USC(in the 80's) I went to the Hillel. I wanted to get involved in Jewish life on campus. However, I was told by the LIBERAL students that they didnt want my kind. I had to bring my own food to events....I wasnt going to let this deter me. To make a long story short....I became the first frum President of SC Hillel....I koshered the Hillel house....then I became the first frum board member of Hillels national student board.
but, it wasnt without alot of shouting and fighting because the liberals didnt want me.

The upshot is that when it comes to having a closed attitude.....it comes from the left....rarely from the right.

Hi Robert...no need to ask forgiveness...for some reason, you cannot offend me! If these words came from anyone other than you, they might. Perhaps that is because what brought me to you was an article about Hebrew Kid and your honest writings about Ariel. I had never read anything quite like it regarding grief...and you drew me right in.

You would consider me liberal, and yet I agree about Stanley Williams. Not only did he kill 4 people, but having started the Crips...is a part of all the killings that resulted from that gang violence.

As for the unsrupulous people out there...you mean to tell me there are no orthodox Jews who partake in unscrupulous behavior?

It was my great honor to attend the Ariel Avrech Lecture, and I hope to attend next year.
By the way Lance, I know what you mean about feeling different...just ask Robert...I did everything wrong that day! I showed up wearing pants; I sat in the men's section, and I shook hands with Robert! (he has very sweetly told me not to worry!). I think you were brave to persevere at USC, and look what you accomplished. You were able to build bridges and demystify what an Orthodox Jew is. My guess is they realized you were a great guy, and that's what was most important.

As far as the shooting range...I still may take you up on that one day Robert...so be prepared...turning 50 makes you do things you never thought you'd do!

Finally, Robert,I think it's great you stand up for what you believe and allow us liberals to question you!

Randi,

I was fortunate to have a great teacher...Rabbi Daniel Landes. He taught me that being inclusive is much better than being exclusive...since when I became frum I was a bit on the zealot side...you know the type....Im right...the whole world is wrong..well Rabbi Landes and his wife Sheryl srtaighten out that 18yo.....I know he got a lot of flack from other Orthodox Rabbis for reaching out to the non Orthodox world. In fact.... because of some of the bridges he built allowed for my success at USC.

The great work he does as Rosh Yeshiva of Pardes Institute spakes to that.....
check out the website....

http://www.pardes.org.il/home/

Lastly....the one thing I enjoy about the many posters is that we might disagree....but we never get personal with each other.

Randi:

Just to cut to heart of the matter: of course there are Orthodox Jews who do not live up the the values they espouse. That goes without saying. I'm afraid that's not a real argument for or against traditional Judaism. The only thing that matters is the history and the behavior of the majority of the adherents of any religion or social movement. Communism is obviously a massive failure for in the last century alone it murdered well over 100 million innocent people. I could go on, but you get my drift.

Peace out, Randi.

I am quite taken aback by what I have just read. Robert, you do our religion a grave disservice when you make sweeping generalities.

You are incorrect when you refer to Reform Jews as "Reformed Jews," and I cringe each time I read you say it.

Further, the past 20 years has brought much diversity (politically) to both the Reform and Conservative movements.

I grew up Conservative. I attend a Reform shul now. I am no leftist. I am pro-death penalty. I am pro-2nd amendment. I did not vote for Kerry. And neither did my Reform Rabbi.

Further, you are wrong about intermarriage. The ones we lose to intermarriage are by-and-large the vast number of Jews who are unaffiliated with any movement.

Bravo to Yehudit on her comments, esp this:

"I'm getting tired of snotty liberal-Jew-bashing by Orthodox, and I'll tell you this: every congregation I've ever been in has a lot of raised-frum members who didn't like something about their Orthodox life, but wanted to stay actively Jewish. There are as many Jews going in our direction from your communities, as going the other way."

She is right. People are leaving Orthodoxy by the droves. I know this because I see them join my movement. And as long as Orthodoxy continues its stance on homosexuals and makes ridiculous edicts (such as the recent one in Lakewood, NJ banning Internet usage in all Orthodox homes in that community) Orthodoxy is a place that will never be for me.

Again, I would caution you about painting the non-Orthodox branches of Judaism with a broad brush. You are just plain wrong.

I need to insert my own comments here. I am a bit younger than some of you, but at the grand old age of 36 I have been involved for quite some time in Jewish organizations.

The majority of my involvement has been in the Conservative moment. I was a USY'er, Ramahnik and am a graduate of LA Hebrew High School. I even spent a semester teaching at YULA.

And I haven't the foggiest idea what Lance is talking about. I was friendly with a number of USY'ers who went to YULA but didn't like NCSY and there was never any discussion of their being uncomfortable.

The reality is that what we are talking about here is based upon speculation and stereotypes and that is a very dangerous way of arguing a point.

I am not a leftist. I am a free thinking independent who doesn't get caught up in kneejerk politics and I could easily argue that the majority of the Orthodox act like unthinking sheep but that would be a disservice to too many good people.

As Mirty validates there are many former members of Orthodoxy that have left and moved on to Conservative or Reform shuls.

We hurt ourselves, all Jews when we make divisive comments that are not based upon fact.

I was in shul today, the largest conservative shul in the valley where a group of us debated Stanley Tookie Williams fate. And you know what, there wasn't a question about his being put to death. The only real concern was whether the state should have the right to execute people and that is a very Jewish argument because it deals with life, affirming the sanctity and holiness of life.

Robert this is your home and I don't mean to come off as a jerk or self-righteous but I wouldn't feel right if I didn't comment.

One more point about the Orthodox world. Want to watch a fight break out stick some Satmars in a room with a group of MOs. There is no one unified position on almost anything.

We need to do better than this, for all of our sakes.

And that ends my shooting from the hip. I hope that it makes sense.

Dear Stacey and Jack:

Thanks so much for your comments.

I have to admit, I'm confused. Who are all the Jews who are voting for the Democrats? Who are all the Jews who are marrying non Jews? To say that they are unafiliated is simpl;y not true. Every study shows that for the most part the children of Conservative and Reform households fail to marry other Jews.

My original point was very simple and one which seems to have been ignored or lost, so let me repeat it: Most Conservative and Reform Jews place their faith in leftists politics over Torah Judaism.

Am I wrong?

Is this bashing?

I think not.

I'm truly sorry that you are so offended by some simple truths. And of course there are exceptions.

Finally, I have to wonder why so many of my readers end up arguing so bitterly about points of religion and halacha when i never even raised such issues.

As for the charge that the "majority of Orthodox are unthinking sheep." Jack. Jack, I don't believe that you really mean something so obviously false.

Robert,

The issue here really is subjective. We can start from asking a simple question that you posed:

Is Torah Judaism a better way to live than a leftist lifestyle. We could further elaborate on this by asking if Torah Judaism and a leftist ideology are compatible.

We could even get into a very deep discussion about what Torah Judaism is. As I alluded to and you know well there are deep divisions among the adherents of Torah Judaism. Minhag is not Halacha but I am not going to go off on that tangent.

Yehudit mentioned something that I find to be very true.

Finally, most of this liberal-Jew-bashing is based on reading a few articles, and often getting the facts wrong. I see this on the frum blogs all the time, none of the bashers actually hang out with conservative Jews or daven in our shuls, so how would you know?

That is a problem and far too many Orthodox Jews think that it is Kosher to look down at those that are different.

I live in Valley Village. I sometimes attend Shaarei Tzedek and am well acquainted with many of the members and I am often amused at their silly comments about what things must be like down the road at Adat Ari El because they are so far off the mark.

Let me try and make this tighter. I agree with you that there needs to be work done on the message and purpose of Conservative and Reform Judaism, moreso on the Conservative side.

But I have to repeat that I routinely encounter people who have left Orthodoxy but want to remain Jewish. They have left because they find it to be stagnant and unforgiving. They have left because they are unhappy with what they feel are simplistic answers to tough questions.

Look, I don't think that all Orthodox Jews are sheep and I don't think that I really said that. My point was that it is really easy to make blanket, stereotypical statements.

Probably my biggest complaint with Orthodoxy has been the unwillingness to really engage in a real dialogue with Conservative and Reform Jews. I think that this is sad and that there are some issues of intolerance.

In any case, the political questions are really subjective. I am not a Democrat nor a Republican because I don't believe in either party. I am an Independent who crosses party lines as I needed and believe me when I say that I encounter many more like me.

On a side note, Bush got very lucky this last election. The Democrats are a mess right now and couldn't come up with anyone who was able to provide a coherent message about how they could improve things.

I am not a Bush basher but frankly his admin is also a mess. It is not something that you can solely blame the MSM for either. Scandal and corruption are all over the place. Jack Abramoff, an observant Jew embarrassed us all.

My real comment here is this. I want to see a change so that there is less assimilation among Jews and I want to see a moment when I really believe that there is an effort on the part of our government to set aside partisan politics and engage in a little Tikkun Olam.

Jack:

Thanks so much for your coherent and fair thoughts.

I don't agree that setting aside partisan politics is desirable. That is a utopian ideal and like all utopian ideals unattainable. Divisions among people are to be expected. It is only in totalitarian states that partisan politics are set aside.

The trick is to disagree, yet not kill each other.

Which we manage to do quite nicely in America. Baruch HaShem.

I strongly agree that we desire less assimilation amonmg the Jewish people. However I do not see the solution as being, oh let's say, quickie Reform conversions, and Patrilineal descent -- which I think you will agree are intellectually bankrupt.

As for Tikkun Olam. I work in Hollywood with some of the most ruthless people on earth. The very notion of Tikkun Olam positively escapes me.

I am content to watch Karen light the Shabbos candles on Friday evening, sit down at the Shabbos table and sing Aishes Chayil, look over at Ariel's empty chair and remember what a Tzaddik this world lost.

I am flattered and humbled that smart and fine people like you and Randi and Mirty and Yehudit and Lance and Stacey can get so passionate about two simple sentences that I dashed off between scenes from a screenplay.

Again, I ask mechila to those I have hurt. It was never my intention.

The trick is to disagree, yet not kill each other.

Which we manage to do quite nicely in America. Baruch HaShem.

Agreed.

I strongly agree that we desire less assimilation amonmg the Jewish people. However I do not see the solution as being, oh let's say, quickie Reform conversions, and Patrilineal descent -- which I think you will agree are intellectually bankrupt.

I used to be opposed to patrilineal descent, but the more I thought about it the more I wondered if there was any logic to it and so I ask you, why not.

Why would you be opposed to patrilineal descent?

And quickie Reform conversions is an easy way to try and marginalize someone who might truly be interested in being Jewish.

There is a reason that Baskin Robbins offers 31 flavors and that is because the world is not filled with people who love Vanilla.

I appreciate people who convert so that they may marry someone who is Jewish but I truly hope that they do so because they are in love with the idea of being Jewish and their spouse to be.

I have many friends who are practicing BTs and are raising the next generation of FFBs. Some of these friends grew up Reform. Imagine if you will if their parents had chosen to give them nothing. They might not have ever been interested in learning more becoming more observant.

My big issue here is this. I see far more tolerance and interest on the part of the Conservative/Reform towards the Orthodox then I see coming the other direction.

And I think that some of that is fear of Conservative/Reform kiruv, not that there is active outreach to bring the Orthodox to those movements, but it comes across as such.

Frankly that kiruv could go the other direction too.

Robert,

One of the things that I appreciate about you is that you interact with the outside world. I am not a fan/believer in isolationism and I think that it is part of what has created problems for us in the past.

Anyway, I have to end this to go to work. Be well to all.

Jack:

I am opposed to patrilineal descent because it is not in the Mesorah. Because The Reform movement has no Halachic authority at all.

If someone wants to convert because they "truly love Judaism" they would, I hope, forgoe the Reform quickies--which I think you will agree are a disgrace, and go for the real thing.

Thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I wish I didn't interact with the outside world so much. I used to be a yeshiva boy desperate to get into Hollywood. Now I'm in Hollywood desperate to get back into yeshiva. The Beis Midrash is a more honest and intellectually challenging world.

Jack:

The problem with some of these "ideas", like patrilineal descent, and "quickie" conversions, is that they make a mockery of Judaism. Its watered down versions of the real thing....it is a fraud.

I am a "old school" product of the Conservative movement. A movement that use to be dedicated to faith and halacha. I learned to appreciate ritual like tefillin...keeping kosher and the sanctity of Shabbat from my mentors in USY.

However, I quickly learned that if I wanted to remain observant I had no home in the Conservative Movement....I and other shomer shabbat members of my synagogue were driven out. We didnt try to change things but wanted to co excist....sorry we were told....and really they did me a great favor.

Of course the Conservative movement ran out great Rabbis like Saul Lieberman, obm......and Rav David Halivni....arguably the greatest living Talmudist today.

And for those of you who think that Orthodoxy is stodgy and unchanging are really misinformed...and completely unaware of the great many changes under way in Torah Judaism.

The only difference is that these "innovations" are made in accordance with a process that dates back to thousands of years....and not just to satisfy the now generation.

Robert:

I agree with you about the Beis Medrash.

There isnt a day that goes by when I dont pine for my days at Pardes. If I could I would gladly return.....

My second biggest mistake...leaving Pardes.
It really was paradise.

I am opposed to patrilineal descent because it is not in the Mesorah.

An argument can be made that there is room for adapting to the present. Chazal was well aware that there would be events/things that couldn't be foreseen, such as electricity.

If someone wants to convert because they "truly love Judaism" they would, I hope, forgoe the Reform quickies--

Are you familiar with what is involved from firsthand knowledge or just what you have heard?

The problem with some of these "ideas", like patrilineal descent, and "quickie" conversions, is that they make a mockery of Judaism. Its watered down versions of the real thing....it is a fraud.

Lance,

That is a kneejerk response. What is it based upon other than your feelings. I suspect that you have some logical explanation other than to just label it a fraud.

However, I quickly learned that if I wanted to remain observant I had no home in the Conservative Movement....I and other shomer shabbat members of my synagogue were driven out.

I am sorry to hear that, but it is not the movement that I know and have known for more than 30 years. Sounds like you had a bad experience at your shul. USY is a high school thing, what kind of involvement did you have afterwards?

Did you ever go to Camp Ramah? I did for years in both California and Canada. I lived the experience. We kept Kosher and were Shomer Shabbat. We davened daily and probably lived in a very similar fashion to your own.

And for many of the campers/staff this was not limited to our time at camp but it was part of life outside of camp.

It sounds to me like you are basing your experiences on something that happened years ago.

Jack:

All the great Halachic authorities, The Rav, Rabbi Feinstein, etc. have looked at Patrilineal descent and rejeted it. All arguments in its favor are done by Reform and some Conservative. Let's not forget the reason for this "innovation." The Reform found itself with so many non Jewish women in its ranks that it had to do something to label the children Jewish so as not to lose membership.

Do I speak from knowledge?

Jack, I work in Hollywood where practically every Jew I meet is married to a non Jewish woman. I've been consulted on numerous conversions. When my Hollywood friends discover what it takes to do an Orthodox conversion, they flee to Conservative. Most then move on to Reform where the deed is done quicker than it takes me to write the first draft of a script, about a month. There might be exceptions, but in general my Hollywood buddies get their fiances done very quickly. Does the conversion mean anything to the women? To some, yes, I'm sure. To the majority, it's less than a pedicure.

Interesting Factoid: Did you know that the Syrian Jewish Community will not accept any conversions? None. Zero.

Jack:

My involvement with the Conservative Movement waned after high school. I attended YULA...and I saw I that there wasnt anything for me in the Conservative Movement....especially if I wanted to be Shomer Shabbat.

BTW.....I attended Ramah....and back then....when I was of high school age....now im 41....it was pretty observant. I appreciated it greatly....it was the foundation I used to become fully observant.

There isnt much more I could add....Robert eloquently stated the reason why "ideas" like patrilineal descent are rejected.

"The Reform found itself with so many non Jewish women in its ranks that it had to do something to label the children Jewish so as not to lose membership."
Why is that a bad thing? Why not do all we can to keep as many people in the faith as possible? Last I looked we are living in America...free to practice or not practice religion as we see fit. And if so many Jews seem to be moving away from religion, perhaps that needs to be explored.

Razel:

If the conversions were sincere, no problem. But, well, let me give you an example and it's not out of the ordinary.

A film guy I know asked my help in converting a girl he wanted to marry. She was raised Roman Catholic. I introduced her to a Orthodox Rabbi. he met with them for a while andf refused the conversion. Why? She was only converting to placate the guy's parents. She was not sincere.

They ended up with a Reform Rabbi.
"Dude, it's soooo easy. No sweat."

Reform Rabbi performed a quickie. Years later my Hollywood buddy and his wife have two daughters--who regularly attend Church and go to private Catholic School. Yet according to Reform the wife and girls are, get this, technically Jewish.

According to the Orthodox, wife was never anything but Roman Catholic.

Whose right?

Sincere conversions are welcomed. In my shul there is a woman who was once a Franciscan Nun. She is one of the most remarkable people I have ever met. She spent 3 hard years studying to convert to Judasim. Not because she wanted to marry someone but because she loved Torah. This is a real conversion. This is authentic.

BTW, she ended up marrying a man in my shul, a really frum guy. It was and is a true romance that was just lovely to observe.

I recognize that most converts cannot reach this madrega, this spiritual height, heck, I can't reach it. But the way most Reform have set up their conversion process, well, it simply dummies down what should be a great spiritual journey.

Randi, Let's go shooting and we can talk about this in much greater detail. I need to let off some steam.

as long as you don't "let off steam" in my direction!

Randi:

The first lesson is devoted to gun safety. You don't start pulling the trigger for quite a while. The men and women at the range I go to are understandably fanatical about weapons safety, especially when it comes to a newbie. Relax, I let off steam using a target of OBL and others of his tribe.

I think you might have a skewed version of reality, living in Hollywood.

I recently spent 5 years on the BOT of my shul (Reform) and I will tell you the conversions are anything but "quickie."

Conversion involves regular synagogue attendance, formal education, learning Hebrew and Jewish history, understanding and celebrating the festivals of the Jewish year and the practices associated with them, and what it means to establish and maintain a Jewish home.

This is not a QUICK process.

At the end of the formal course of study, when the rabbi is satisfied that these criteria have been fulfilled, an appearance is arranged before the Beit Din. The candidate is examined as to learning and assessed as to sincerity and readiness for kabbalat mitzvot.

Before the appearance at the Beit Din, males are required to undergo milah. After the appearance all candidates, male and female, undergo tevilah at the mikveh.

I thought that your comments could not get more upsetting Robert, but they have.

With all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about in regards to conversion within the Reform movement.

The largest denomination of Jews in this country is Reform. If not for this movement, many of us who live active Jewish lives (as Mirty alludes to in her comment above) might have otherwise completely left the fold.

Stacey:

I'm sorry that you are so upset. I'm heartened that the conversion process in your Temple is so complete. Alas, as I understand it the Reform movement leaves much to the judgement of each individual Rabbi, so you can imagine that many questionable conversions slip through. So perhaps your vision is a bit skewed too. Is this not possible? Or is it only the Orthodox who are ignorant of the other? I will admit that I am no authority on the Reform movement. (Sheesh, I'm no authority on the Orthodox.) I only know what I have encountered in my personal life from time to time, and the conversions I have witnessed by Reform Rabbis are, well, not.

In case it's not clear, I'm more than happy that there is Reform and Conservative. I realize that Orthodoxy is not for everyone. But, that being said, I still maintain the right to critisize. As I constantly critisize my side of the aisle for our shortcomings, which are not insignifigant.

I agree with Stacey re the conversion process. The reform conversions I have seen, are not lightly achieved either. But I would not expect a reform conversion to be on par with an orthodox conversion, otherwise the person would be converting to Orthodox Judaism. In the end, we are all Jews...even the Nazi's knew that...they did not discriminate based on level of observance. So why is it the Jews themselves are discriminating against one another?

Let me apologize in advance...this is comment is not meant to hurt or be insulting.

However, someone does not convert to "Orthodox Judaism". Either one converts, and excepts the the mitzvot....shabbat....kashrut....or they dont.

Unfortunately, I, nor my teachers, would accept someone who has a non Halachic conversion.

My Rabbi once commented to me that it was a sad day when the Reform movement adopted patrilineal descent. This has done more to separate Jews....since now we have to ask whether that person is indeed Jewish.

In fact this recalls something funny to me that happened during my days at USC. I once dated this girl who was also active at the Hillel. During the date...in fact while we waited in a lounge before a movie.....we were talking about our families...and she casually remarked her dad was Jewish....but Mom wasnt. However, she considered herself Jewish. Well...I didnt know what to say...I wanted to be diplomatic....we finished the date....had a good time....but I knew going home I had gone out with my first non Jew. Of course....there wasnt a second date.

It is a sad day when we have to question someone if they are truly Jewish. But, the liberal movements in America have created this problem.

"However, someone does not convert to "Orthodox Judaism". Either one converts, and excepts the the mitzvot....shabbat....kashrut....or they dont."
Lance...I don't understand...do they or don't they convert? You say one does not convert, then you say, either one converts, or they don't. So do you mean, a person cannot become an Orthodox Jew if they so choose? You are either born one or out of luck? I'm completely confused now. Please clarify.

Okay, I just re-read and see what you are saying, Lance...you either "convert" or you don't. (kinda like being a little pregnant). Your point of view is that nothing but being an Orthodox Jew is really valid...Am I understanding that correctly?
(sorry Robert, for all of the side conversation on YOUR blog!)

Randi:

In my world view.....if we are talking about conversion....then, yes. If the conversion is not done according to halacha; then, that person, no matter how sincere would not be considered Jewish.

Of course, I don't invalidate, heaven forbid, Jews that belong or affiliate with Liberal Judaism (ie. conservative and reform judaism).
I may disagree with the way they practice and interpret Judaism, but I would never say they are not Jews.

In the end, we are all Jews...even the Nazi's knew that...they did not discriminate based on level of observance. So why is it the Jews themselves are discriminating against one another?

Randi,

There is an exceptional amount of truth in that.I have a very dear friend who runs an outreach program which does its very best to bring unaffiliated Jews back to the flock.

They unabashedly say that their preference is that they help them to become Torah Observant Orthodox Jews.

But they also recognize that it is better to try and get these people involved in Judaism on some level than none at all.

They realize that it is not a one size fits all kind of proposition and that we are better off when we are more inclusive and less exclusive.

Look, there are certain lines that can never be crossed and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you to prevent those, but at the same time in good conscience I cannot sit back and not respond to some of these comments because truth is that Judaism has been in an evolutionary state for most of its existence.

Part of our strength is our ability to hold onto tradition and our ability to adapt, adopt and overcome.

And look, it is very clear to me that there people out there who don't care if my Mezuzah is Kosher, whether I daven Shacharis daily or once a year. To them I am just another Jew and they'd slice my throat as easily as they'd do it to another.

It is better to stand together than apart.

"It is better to stand together than apart."
I agree, Jack...Thanks

Exactly, Jack. Exactly!

Jack...you message needed to be said and hopefully heard with open ears and mind. Thanks.

"But I still hold with my original premise: the majority of Conservative and Reformed Jews are liberals, and off the cliff lefties, far more passionate about global warming than Torah."

Isn't it better to have passion for global warming than to have none? Why does it have to be one or the other. I find that many conservatives run and hide behind religion and the bible in order to support apathy and prejudices?

"My original point was very simple and one which seems to have been ignored or lost, so let me repeat it: Most Conservative and Reform Jews place their faith in leftists politics over Torah Judaism."

This type of statement is both arrogant,mis-informed,and offensive. Having strong values and ethics in interests in addition to Judiasm should not be looked upon as a horrific sin. The converative orthodox movement profess to having torah based values, but I don't see them.

Personally, all this liberal/left jew bashing is pushing me farther and farther away from wanting to have anything to do with exploring deeper into Judiasm or leading a more observant lifestyle. It leading me to rethink about the community my children and I are involved in, the modern orthodox community. We don't belong to their shuls but because I want my children to develop early a very strong foundation in Judaism in ways that I am unprepared to do alone, I have them attending an orthodox day school rather than attending a Hebrew/Sunday school. I have always felt a strong connection to my Jewish roots and identity, but I don't live a torah base lifestyle. I understand the conflict. I grew up in a conservative shul where we learned that men wore tallis, kippot and read from the torah. I struggle with women being Rabbis and wearing tallis and kippot. And yet it goes against everything I feel strongly for, women rights, etc. My only reason why I am against it, is because it's the way I grew up and was taught. I am a zionist and fiercely protective of Israel. My heart wants the US to bomb the hell out of Iraq, but my head tells me that the real reason we are over there is for all the wrong reasons, greed and power. Again it's a struggle because Judiasm and Israel are close to my heart but I am not willing to trade it all in for supporting or lack thereof, issues that affect all mankind.

I know if I am turned off from this, people with little or no affiliation or background definitely will be. Keep pushing them away by lashing out with ignorant words, viewpoints and hyprocritical behavior, and you can add yourself to the list of reasons why so many are going in the other direction.

Each time I read articles, blogs and comments that continue to label people and ideas rather than dissect what the real problems and issues are, I get a knot in my stomach. It frustrates me to no end. I am so disguested by reading in blog after blog the magnitude of disdain, distrust and plain hatred towards those who views are actually challenging and lives life without blinders on, without only focusing Jewish life. It's time to wake up and meet the world, empathisize with social injustices and make a stand on Realistic issues that are and will be affecting our future and our planet!

And btw, I agree with the author of in the Jerusalem Post article to Speilberg, and as for Tookie William's fate...yes justice was served.

p.s. I just reread what I wrote, and I know that some of my points may sound, what is the term Trep used, Straw man, but excuse me it's very late and I am too tired to lay it out more specifically and directly.