I thought he didn't get the death penalty because he 'didn't pull the trigger' so to speak. I agree that the possibility of kidnappings is very real. I'm wondering what the reaction of the Muslim world has been since the announcement. I'm sure MEMRI will find something about it. They are very up on what's happening on Arab/Muslim websites.

BTW, there was a program about Meir Har-Tzion on tv on Independence Day. I keep thinking about your making a movie about him. The guys - and, himself, - who were with him aren't youngsters anymore.

Chaya

The Nuremberg trials were conducted after WWII was over and after Germany surrendered unconditionally. There will be no unconditional surrender in this war, and I don't see our apprehended enemies should be entitled to trials - and civilian ones at that. (I could say more, but it wouldn't pass the Seraphic censor.)

Chaya:

ZM was found guilty of the charges. But because of extenuating circumstances--a bad chilhood, an abusive father, blah,blah blah, he was spared the death penalty.

I'm sorry to tell you that Hollywood is pretty much an anti Zionist colony. The last pro Israel movie made in this town was: "Exodus." That's over 30 years ago. The chances of getting a movie about Har Tzion bankrolled by Hollywood are zero. You have to ask yourself, why isn't it being done in Israel? That is a shame and a scandal.

Jeremiah:

Just witness the absurd trial of Saddam Hussein. No, trials for these barbarians are a great waste of time. The should only be hunted down and killed. And no one should ever be able to find their remains.

No one ever thought the Japanese would surrender unconditionally, but two bombs did it. Western discipline and firepower can work wonders. The trick is for us to remain steadfast.

Could not agree more, Robert. After 9/11, President Bush would repeatedly say "We will bring them to justice". (Please do not go after me for saying this, anyone, this is not Bush bashing, it's just a reiteration of his statements at the time).I realize we live in the United States where justice must not be denied, but how do you bring justice to pure evil ...this is a tough one to make sense of.
I assume that he will be locked up alone in a special facility? Too bad...I'm sure that there is a guy named Bubbah who would have been happy to welcome him to prison.

Randi:

I hate when Pres. Bush says "bring them to justice" just as I hated it when Clinton said it.

Having ZM in prison sets a terrible precedent. Now every terrorist is going to kvetch about his terrible childhood, racism, yadda, yadda, yadda.

When are we going to wake up that some people have to be killed?

This man was held legally responsible for the horrible deaths of close to 3,000 people. Yet, that seems to mean very little to this jury.

Hussein's trial is important for establishing civil society in Iraq. Besides, he did not declare war on the US, "only" on Iran, Kuwait, and his own people. This is different.

Couldn't agree with you more. Maybe someone will knock him off in prison. Or is he going to be isolated?

Punishment: make him listen twice every day to a Books on Tape version of Elie Wiesel's Dawn - once in Hebrew, once in Arabic, every day for the rest of his life. Dawn's about the agonizing self-examination that comes when a Jew has to kill for a cause. Plus, its narrator had a, uh - shall we say? - "rough childhood."

Irina:

ZM will be in a special facility and in "isolation." However, I have spent a fair amount of time researching prisons and I can tell you that security is lax, and he will have plenty of opportunities to meet with a parade of radical Imams, bleeding heart liberal lawyers, women who will propose marriage, lots of books, and of course the Koran will be at his side. Believe me, life will be just hunky-dory for this human monster. And I can practically guarantee that he will make converts to his cause in prison.

This jury has spit on the 9-11 dead, and they will be responsible for many more deaths. They are a disgrace.

P.S. Let us all wish Irina a Seraphic Mazal Tov, she graduates college in a few days.

Jeremiah:

A fine idea, except for one problem: ZM would have one of his lawyers bring a massive lawsuit against the prison system for cruel and unusual punishment. The NY Times would write scathing editiorials in ZM's favor, Muslims would riot worldwide and, well, you can write the rest of story all by yourself.

And Haaretz, too, I suppose?

I can only hope that to Bush, "justice" is a 5-ton bomb. But then I guess we'd be bringing justice to the perpetrators, not the other way around. Oh, well.

Even more depressing, most of those who would prefer anti-terrorism to be a law enforcement operation aren't big fans of domestic law enforcement in the first place...

Jeremiah:

I hate to tell you this, but Haaretz is way left wing; they have some columnists, Jewish and Arab, that would fit very nicely into your past political beliefs.

Ralphie:

Ultimately, I believe that Bush does believe in killing our enemies and not hauling them to a courtroom. He just feels compelled to use diplomatic language. Though I think this is a huge mistake.

And I do agree with you, those who prefer law enforcement to combat terrorism are usually no fans of police or military.

I'd even go so far as to say that they have a real soft spot in their hearts for the Islamofascists. Any group that hates America, well, is just okay by them.

Ok, you think forced sessions with Elie Wiesel's Dawn is cruel & unusual? Try this: Moussaoui and Lindh have to play the leads in The Producers, but the jailhouse version will be called The Destroyers.

Moussaoui and Lindh bilk unsuspected Jewish retirees out of their life savings to finance a play that mocks the tragedy of the 9/11. They assume the American public will vehemently reject The Destroyers, but - lo and behold - the infidels -- I mean, Americans -- strangely react to seeing an obscure bunch of fanatic misfits plot to destroy their entire civilizaton only with that refiend, chuckling, overfed amusement of our culture-consumer class.

Each audience member, after being required to take off his shoes when entering the auditorium, will be handed a Koran instead of a Playbill. Instead of sequined Rockettes, 72 burqa-clad virgins dance on stage. And, of course, men here, women there.

As the audience rolls in the aisles, a ne'er do well Muslim fanatic appears on stage, beseeching the crowd, "No, no, you don't understand! Osama bin Laden was a wonderful man!"

Whaddya think? Moussaoui's got the theatrics down to fill Zero Mostel's shoes. Picture him pouring over southern Florida's Democratic Party voter rolls, pumping his fists in the air and chanting, "America, you lost!"

Lindh will need a little coaching. But that's okay: George Clooney, Tim Robbins, Sean Penn will donate their time and talent to help him. And don't forget the cameo appearance by Lynn Redgrave.

Good night and good luck, America.

The trial did nothing but give Moussaoui a platform and Robert is right, prison life will be fine for him. We have to stop thinking about what life in prison would mean for productive members of society like us, for criminals like this prison is pretty darn good. They get to hang out with guys just like them, abuse the guards regularly, and even give interviews.

Thanks for the good wishes!

Talking about the sentencing, I'm surprised by how many people are trying to rationalize it and make the best of it, instead of openly expressing their outrage.

Jeremiah:

Here's the sad part: your scenario sound all too plausible, you just forgot wife beating Sean Penn and ignorant Charlie Sheen. Oh and the truly no-talent Mike Farrell who can always be counted on to support our most heinous murderers.

Robert: What I would give for one M*A*S*H castmember who's a rootin'-tootin' rightwinger! Sutherland? No. Alda? No. Farrell? No. (I ran into Sutherland once, walking his poodle on 5th Avenue....)

Irina's word choice of "outrage" is worth considering. But outrage at what, exactly? Not at Moussaoui, though he mocked us all (again). At the jury, the lawyers, the judge? Higher up the juridical ladder? At my own sleepwalking through this issue? (I didn't follow it closely 'til this week.)

Consider: When the LA policemen were acquitted of beating Rodney King - an innocent - parts of LA burned for days (plus lesser rioting and property damage in other cities). During the trial, did the defendants mock King, his family, the black community or the rest of America? Did they denounce black leaders for demanding their conviction as "race-baiting b.s."?? Did they say they wished more black motorists would be beaten by police???

Now here's an individual who conspired to commit mass murder in a sophisticated, stealthy part-military, part-espionage operation. They say war is too important to be left to the generals. Well, trying enemy combattants is too important to be left to civilians.

I'm outraged.

Jeremiah:

I'd like to point out that it was a Frenchman who said that war was too important to be left to generals. Need I say more?

With regard to what you said, I can only say ditto.

That's our problem: teenagers know more about Napoleon Dynamite than Napoleon Bonaparte.

Here's a new one: "Peace is too important to be left to the pacifists"

Robert,

I'm inclined to believe, from the little I know about the case, that the death penalty would have been appropriate. I respect my fellow Christians belonging to the Roman Catholic denomination, but I respectfully disagree with their (historically recent) sharp turn against the death penalty, the theological basis for which seems to have been conjured out of thin air. I'm not sure how much this has affected the culture at large, but it's bound to have some effect.

However, if it's any consolation, there's a fair chance ZM will be sent to the same maximum-security federal prison in Colorado used for such notorious pieces of work as Robert Hansen and Tim McVeigh. I once heard an FBI agent describe this prison. Those incarcerated in it never see green leaves or a blue sky. ZM will spend the rest of his life alone in an 8' by 11' cell whose windows are so arranged that all he can see is the concrete pavement outside his window. He also gets no TV, a restriction that some people might consider punitive, if you get what I'm saying.

I think I would prefer the death penalty, but that's a moot question, since I'm not a psychopath nor likely to be mistaken for one. (Eccentric is another matter.)

Kent: I heard on tv that he will have tv but the programs will be restricted.

Off the subject, Robert: Olmert has just signed a bill raising the price of bread!! His campaign supposedly focusing on the problems of Israel was nothing but a phony campagin promise! Yes, I know they all make promises to get elected; but to RAISE THE PRICE OF BREAD??? Next thing you know, he'll be saying "Let them eat cake!" PLUS, Kadima put Aliyah number 42 on their proposed guidelines! And the topper is: Olmert has said he plans to DIVIDE JERUSALEM!!! Now, that's where you come in. Please, please contact your representatives and advise them of this and tell them that this is a very dangerous move. The expulsion of Jews from their homes in Judea and Samaria is dangerous enough for Israel; but to divide Jerusalem and have terrorists operating from our Holy City is pure suicide and right now - at this moment - the thought of this is bringing tears to my eyes!! There MUST BE some other Jews in Hollywood who don't toe the PC line. What about Ron Silver? And - what's his name - the comedian who was in "Soap" - very funny guy. Can't think of his name at the moment. There must be others like you!!

Kent,
A slight correction: Catholics are able to support the death penalty. The late pope's plea that it be used only as a last resort when public safety is at risk (which I think we can all agree the above fits) falls under the category of personal opinion. We should listen to it respectfully, but it's not at all in the same league with doctrine.

If you refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you'll see that capital punishment is still an option of justice.

In the light of the huge initial error of trying him in civil court, and the shambles of the appeals system, I think this is the best of the outcomes.

Chaya,
Are you thinking of Billy Crystal?

Rachel: Thank you! That's right - Billy Crystal! Very funny guy.

Shabbat Shalom to all my fellow Jews! And a good weekend to everyone here.

Kent:

I am somewhat reluctant to enter the capital punishment debate among the various Christian denominations for I am certainly no expert on their theology. And let's be frank, I do have my hands full with liberal Jews who oppose capital punishment, have no notion that Judaism supports capital puishment, and even if they were aware of this, could not care less.

Needless to say, my brain melts when I see anyone carrying a sign in opposition to capital puinishmnet that reads: "Thou shall not kill."

That's a mistranslation. The Torah says: "Thou shall not murder."

I'm interested in knowing if these people are lying or are just ignorant.

Either way, they are wrong in using this commandment as a theological source.

Chaya:

You must not make the mistake of counting on any support from the Hollywood community. Forget it. It is not going to happen. Heck, they don't even care about the genocide in Darfur. It's not fashionable enough.

Billy Crystal is a typical leftie.

Ron Silver is a good guy, a liberal recently turned hard right, but he's just one man.

As for Olmert's plan. I just don't know enough about it to comment intelligently. Give me some time to look into it, okay?

George Clooney has found Darfur to be fashionable, Robert.

Randi:

Yup, that's one.

Sal,

I tried to be careful how I worded my comment. I am aware that the death penalty is not absolutely forbidden under the current Catholic catechism, but I do think the attitudes among Catholics I know or whose writings I read are tending in that direction. I realize it's important to distinguish between the personal opinion of a respected theological leader and a binding statement of doctrine; we sometimes see the same confusion in my own church.

I think you are right that this is the kind of extraordinary case where Catholics ought to have been able to support a death sentence. Even Stephen Bainbridge qualified his "Good" when he heard the verdict with "... I think."

"I am afraid that America simply does not understand that we are at war with a genocidal theology. When I hear the phrase, "We must bring these people to justice," I feel ill.

We must make total war on these human monsters.

Until Americans understand this simple fact, we lose."

Exactly. EXACTLY. Right now, the terrorists are laughing at how utterly weak America is. How the "war on terrorism" is such an empty and meaningless expression.

Showing this kind of mercy to terrorists only encourages more terrorism.

I recently found your blog and am thoroughly enjoying it. The story of how you met your wife is just wonderful! Can't wait for the next part!

RR:

Thanks so much for your generous comments. If you want to read the entire story of "How I Married Karen" it can be found here:http://www.seraphicpress.com/archives/how_i_married_karen/

This is the archives so just scroll all the way to the bottom for Chapter 1 and then just work your way up the current entry.

Enjoy and welcome to Seraphic Secret.