Robert,

It is sad to see a religious movement hijacked from the left.

However, it is most gratifying and heartening to see that there are some working to battle this evil in their midst.

These brave people will always have a friend in me.

Lance:

My sources inform me that, no surprise, there is a n Arab group, behind the scenes of this divestment, working furiously with the radical leftists and antiSemites in the PCUSA for the divestment program.

Their goals are long range. They are quite happy that this issue has been legitimized and is "fashionable" on our elite university campuses. Their attitude is: it may not happen this year, but it will happen next year. We are strong and patient, the Zionists are and weak and do not have the strength of their convictions.

The fact that pro divestment groups have Jewish students in their ranks only serves to strengthen their convictions.

My Anonymous source is a brave person who risks a great deal by leaking this unsavory information to Seraphic Secret.

Larry Rued risks scorn and isolation with his insistence on standing by the truth, and against the forces of darkness in his church.

There are many more fine Christians who are diligently working behind the scenes aganst this wretched campaign, against the antiSemitic elements in PCUSA--the Jewish community should be aware and express deep gratitude.

Robert,

It is troubling that Jews are assisting these evil people.

Of course, with the poison they learn from today's college campuses, it isnt a surprise.

Robert, you are correct that we should be grateful and extend ourselves to these brave people. I have no doubt they risk plenty in trying to stand up for what is right.

However, some elements of the Jewish community think these righteous people have ulterior motives. Some are fearful that every last one is out for our soul. But, if we don't extend ourselves to these wonderful people, who risk their neck for us... we may find we won't have friends when things get really hot.

For those who need convincing that these wonderful folks are on our side I would like to recommend a book:

"Standing With Israel" by David Brog.
Brog, a former aid to Sen. Arlen Specter, does a nice job laying out the argument for why Christians extend a helping hand to Israel and Jews.

Lance and Robert:

I agree 100% with all the talk about how we should cultivate our friendships with the friendly Christians out there, of whom there are many.

And yet, one of the biggest hullabaloos in the Orthodox community today is over a small Talmud study session Rabbi Avi Weiss' Yeshiva hosted for a small number of Catholic priests. By what is being written about Weiss, you'd think he had converted to Catholicism himself. The vitriol is really tough for me to read. I haven't always liked everything about Rabbi Weiss, but if we want co-operation and not discord with our Christian counterparts, Weiss needs our support right now.

Lance:

The Christians I know, have no ulterior motives other than to do the right thing and cleanse their church of the antiSemtism, antiZionism and proJihadist elements that have insidiously infected it.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I will pick it up.

Have a lovely and meaningful Shavuos.

Jake,

You are right.

I know I have been in some chat rooms that the vitriol would make your skin crawl. If you would replace the terms they use with "jew", they would be termed racist.

As Robert correctly pointed out...and my experience has concurred .....that these Christian are true friends and they need to be supported.

Jake:

I am not going to be drawn into a discussion of Rabbi Weiss and Gemara study with Catholic priests.

Not when my topic is divestment.

There are serious halachic issues that need to be considered. Halachic issues that have absolutely no relevance to the divestment emergency.

Tying these two subjects together, equating them as on the the same halachic/moral/social/ethical/whatever plane is not only dead-wrong, but an empty intellectual exercise that if carried to its logical/illogical/pathological conclusion, would cripple any serious endeavour at fighting the divestment program.

Sometimes Jake, what you see is what you see.

P.S. A word of caution: it's not wise to promiscuously call for the support of a man you've never met, a man you've not spent a great deal of time with, a man whose history in the Jewish community you may not be completely familiar with. More often than not, you get burned. Very badly.

Sometimes Jake, what you see is not what you see.

Perhaps it is a bit of a stretch to "tie" these two issues together. (And I mean no disrespect for those who are wary of breaking Jewish law. But as Lance has pointed out, I really think the vitriol incurred over this issue has been uncalled for). However, I do think they both fall under the wide rubrick of a few beliefs I hold dear at the moment:

1) Jews and Christians have an opportunity now as never before to achieve important things together in the world. It's not just about the state of Israel, it's about the quest to live a moral life and the importance of admitting that humanity does not have all the answers.

2) There is no denying that since the Holocaust, Christian attitudes towards Jews and Christian teaching about Jews has improved overwhelmingly. I'm not so sure Jews can say the same, and that's to our detriment. Why? See, #1.

3) If Jews, especially religious Jews, don't recognize this opportunity and grab hold of it, not only are we lost, but the whole world may be lost as well.

Anyway, I'm just an amateur. Read what I mean here, (disclaimer, my Dad basically wrote all of it): http://www.icjs.org/what/njsp/dabruemet.html

Jake:

As you know, Seraphic Secret does not condone nor indulge in vitriol in any manner, shape or form.

However, in the final analysis, tying these two issues together on the same platform does more harm than good.

Look at this, we're completely off-topic. Can anyone say: counterproductive.

Jake,

I may have jumped the gun in my assertions.

However, there are those in the non Modern Orthodox community who might look for any reason to criticize Rabbi Weiss.

There is no doubt that Rabbi Weiss is a lightening rod....and some like him...others don't.

We should remain focused.

The issue is divestment.....and the issue and halachic implications of teaching Torah to non Jews is probably best left for another day.

True enough... and I say here that I have no agenda in bringing these two things together, but if we are to work for the anti-divestment campaign with non-Jews, I say we need to enhance our relationship overall. Perhaps we can start in areas with no halachic questions attached.

A few points:

I am glad Robert has pointed out that there are those who will not stand idly by when evil is afoot, and I am heartened to read about Larry Rued and the other person uncovering the Finkelstein book purchase. Robert called Finklestein "loathsome", and I would use a much worse word, but will follow the no-profanity rules on this site.

It is quite scary reading about these divestment and boycott campaigns, as they have a way of gaining momentum. Ignorance is vast, the enemy is strong and well-financed, and there is a lot of burying head in the sand activity out there, amongst both Jews and non-Jews alike.

I would say, though, that it IS time Jews learn to get over the fear of Christians. Are some Christians out to convert Jews? Sure! It's not out of enmity, either, but instead of worrying about it, Jews should worry about teaching their children Judaism, and strengthening those children in their Jewishness. While there are no guarantees in life, the statistics bear out convincingly that kids raised in households where Jewish education and life is stressed, tend to not intermarry and/or convert/assimilate.

Tell the kids why Israel DESERVES a place in the world and why it does, take them to Israel before they go to college or show them what Israel is really about so they have some basis to counter the propaganda they will get out there in college or after.

And don't quit worrying about these things, but know that you will have given the children a pretty good chance that they will remain Jews, if that is important to you! We need to learn to deal from a position of strength, and not be on the defensive, and that, IMHO, is a better way to deal with the paranoia rather than dismiss Christians who profess a love of Israel. They are FRIENDS.

So, we need to be strong within ourselves, with our children, and then quit worrying about what used to be and focus on the here and now; Islam is the new Nazism/Communism, and pro-Zionist Christian groups are our ALLIES and not the enemy.

In fact, I would remind those who inveigh against Zionist Christians that were it not for a group of committed Zionist ENGLISHMEN, such as a certain Lord Balfour and his friends, there might be no modern State of Israel. It was the dream of those men in England, who knew their Bible and dreamed themselves of the Jewish return to Zion, every bit as much as the work of Herzl et al, that helped bring about the reestablishment of Israel.

Well said, Maurice. And I think those words will do us good as we battle this ridiculous Presbyterian boycott attempt.

By the way, I used that zip code finder and I am emailing my local Presbyterian church to see where their pastor stands on this. I was extremely respectful and pleasant, etc. I suggest we all do this to try to get a reasoned dialogue going. I think those who have infiltrated the Presbyterian church are working off of ignorance and apathy as much as anything else. We may not be able to reverse the evil, but we can reduce the ignorance and apathy pretty easily.

Here is what I wrote to my local Presbyterian Church Pastor:

Dear Rev. Barnum:

As a concerned Jewish resident of this community, I am distressed by the PCUSA's continuing campaign to boycott businesses connected to the State of Israel. If I may, I'd like to make the case for strongly rejecting this campaign at the Presbyterian Church USA's General Assembly on June 15.

Let me begin by confessing my ignorance. I have no idea whether you personally or your membership has supported or opposed the boycott measures, and this email is not based on any assumptions to that effect. I am only writing to you because the Bellmore Presbyterian Church is a member of PCUSA, and your vote really counts.

I am also not, nor have I ever been, an unabashed, "blind follower" of the State of Israel's government. There are many things Israel and individual Israelis have done over the years that are reprehensible. But to single out Israel, a democratic country that offers freedom of religion to all her citizens, as the target of an economic boycott is nothing short of frightening for this 35-year-old Long Islander.

Even more frightening are confirmed reports that the PCUSA leadership has been infiltrated by Palestinian groups more than just a little sympathetic to the unmitigated murder of Jews not just in Israel, but throughout the world. Of course the best response to this infiltration is not another infiltration; it is simply a call for all the facts to be heard, something that no sane Presbyterian could do without realizing that boycotting Israel is nothing short of an evil deed at this time.

Please don't just take my word for it. I direct you to the website http://concernedpresbyterians.net/ which makes a much stronger case than I can against this dangerous move.

Once again, I apologize that I am unaware of your personal position on this matter. For all I know you are a strong opponent of the divestment campaign already. But I believe this is a moral issue that's too important to take for granted.

I welcome any chance to speak or email you about this further. I suspect you have much to say from a very informed point of view of your own.

Jake:

A fine letter indeed. May I suggest to all Seraphic Secret readers that we use Jake's letter as a template. Write to your local Presbyterian Church and Pastor and let your voice and outrage be heard.

Well done, Jake.

Maurice,

This is for you... ;)

Maurice,

This is for you ;)

Bleeeep....@#$%^....

Robert,

Great idea....

I think a good letter campaign would be a good way to communicate our feelings.

Seraphic Friends:

Anonymous has drawn my attention to Jake's letter and has some adjusments that Anonymous feels are in order.

I pass these on as they came to me from my source. I trust Anonymous completely and would follow the suggestions.

Robert:

I just read Jake's letter. I see a few problems that will only allow the PCUSA to "correct" the record ("this is not boycott," "there are no
Palestinian infiltrators," for instance), spin it ("this is corporate engagement") and hold up the misstatement to claim our side is ignorant or spreading lies. Believe me, Robert, I've seen them do this, and they wind up smelling like a rose by the end while making Jews look like stinkers. I'm gravely serious about this.

This is what the PCUSA has underway: a process of corporate engagement whose eventual terminus is divestment from companies directly supporting the occupation (or terror--leadership threw in "terror" due to lay and Jewish protest, but only 1 of 5 companies PCUSA is currently targeting have to do with Palestinian terror) if the companies themselves don't voluntarily do so after being "engaged." The agreed upon truth of what PCUSA is doing is injurious enough without our having to speak of boycott or Palestinian infiltration. We have to address why that process in and of itself is injurious to Israel and
the Jewish community at large, and that's not a hard one to argue.

Anonymous

Christians are a persecuted minority in the very Muslim countries that are now virtually Judenrein. Most Christians don't know how good they have it here in the US of A, either.

Jeremiah:

The savages who support divestment hate Jews more than they love Christians.

I see anonymous' points and will be ready if my local Presbyterian pastor responds.

Jake:

Thanks so much. Have a lovely and meaningful Yuntif.

Jews and Christians are in the same boat. The same Islamofascists that want to blow up all the Jews in Israel want to subjugate the Christians as dhimmis (second-class citizens) and are in fact persecuting Arab Christians at this very moment.

PCUSA is guilty not only of attacking the one democratic nation in the Middle East, it is also guilty of selling out Christians to the Islamofascists.

Think of PCUSA as a passenger airplane.

(1) Mainstream Presbyterians are the passengers in the back of the airplane.

(2) The divestment supporters and the Hezbollah-lovers are the hijackers in the cockpit yelling "Allahu akbar."

(3) First Presbyterian Church of Orlando FL, which voted to cut off contributions to the General Assembly and wrote a scathing letter (citing "behavior inconsistent with God's word and His Will") to go with that action has just said "Let's roll." The rest of us, Jews and Christians alike, must roll with FPCO.

Winged Hussar:

Thanks so much for your comment and for the eloquent and apt metaphor. What can I say, but: "Let's keep rolling together."

In addition to protesting against the Presbyterians, we should also make an effort to express hakarot ha-tov to those denominations that are steady friends of Israel and that never permit its members to partake in such activity.

I attended a debate in Brooklyn College about 13 years ago in which Finkelstein participated. His name popped up again in my radar when he published his book on the "Holocaust industry." I am not surprised that the work of this sone'ei yisra'el is being used by pro-divestment forces. I will stop writing now. Unlike Maurice, I am unable to abide by Robert's rules against profanity when it comes to Finkelstein.

Is it possible certain labor unions are using the church as a means of disciplining headstrong corporations as a matter of discipline?

Dale:

The answer is a big 'no.' We will be running a big article detailing the PCUSA and what goes on behind the closed doors. Sometimes what you see is what you see. A bunch of Jew haters.

I am a good friend of Larry Reud and a cosigner of the Concerned Presbyterians letter. I found your blog today. Hello!

I know that it will come as no suprise to you or your readers that Larry has already come under heavy fire and has paid a price for his stance against the PC(USA)'s anti-Israel lunacy. Yet, knowing what is right, he has never backed down and we are all blessed by his uncompromising stand for the truth.

Your commenters are right, many of the denominational leaders, liberal pastors and some of our churches are haters of the Jewish people. But as horrible as that is, they also hate Christians and Christianity! Sure, they couch it in terms of 'justice' and all, but this action and their tactics in keeping it going, show their true motives.

Keep showing the world what ugliness lies at the heart of this divestment action!

Mr. Brown:

Thanks so much for your comment, for your support and friendship. We realize that Larry and his friends have come under attack for their principled stand against the anti-Semites in their midst.

It is always hard to stand up against those who self-rightesously scream the loudest. But these tyrants will be defeated. History has proven this time and again.

Take a look at today's article in Seraphic Secret by David Paulin wherein he demonstrates that the rot in the PCUSA goes even deeper than good people ever imagined.

shalom i am from Iran and i dont have gemara book and i am studing mishna and shabat halakhot shalom.

shalom i am from Iran and i dont have gemara book and i am studing mishna and shabat halakhot shalom.

Nathan:

Thnaks for writing to us. We wish you the best in your Torah learning and hope that soon you will be able to leave Persia and retun to Jerusalem.