"Your moral compass is not just broken, but utterly shattered. You do not recognize the difference between right and wong."

Before I permanently leave your site, as I plan to today, I want to hopefully disabuse you of your central fallacy- that you get your morals (and therefore your politics and positions on plagiarism or what have you) from your religion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Since you no doubt won't buy Dawkin's book, the God Delusion, perhaps you'll take a few minutes to try to undertand yourself by watching Dawkins make clear that religious "values" don't come from religion but from what he terms, the changing moral zeitgeist.

It is a brief and incisive exposition and would finally shut up the Pragers and Medveds and Avrechs (that is, the "pick and choose" Jews)of the world who are wont to beat the bible and call everyone but their ilk "immoral."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZ9JMUFIVqE&mode=related&search=

Robert,

I don't expect a pass from you if I haven't carried the weight on this one as you've expected me to, but ....

It is odd to see "DovBear" accepting a "guest post" from another blogger who diligently lists several instances of plagiarism, including from established print media such as The New Republic. (If I were at TNR I'd be infuriated and consider a legal or, failing that, some other professional remedy.) It's odd because it seems egotistical and, at the same time, self-debasing to display such information.

The guy does not play by the same rules as most of the rest of us play by. It's that simple, no?

btw, It's possible after all that "DovBear" is not as anonymous as he wants the blogosphere to believe he is. For some reason, I bet he looks something like this.

Thank you, Robert, for being the blogosphere's voice in the wilderness on this one.

PS, Irina earned her stripes in a recent post on this subject.

"He does not get paid, (actually, he does have advertisers) hence the plagiarism is not serious."

i don't think people understand that this is not about money. its about working hard on an intellectual or cultural pursuit that is your own creation.

i suspect that db's defenders who keep harping on the money issue have never written anything original, substantial or meaningful and do not understand how it feels to be ripped off (not in a financial sense).

i personally have been burned on more than one occasion by not receiving proper credit in publications. my displeasure had nothing to do with money, because i never owned the copyright to these works and never expected to be repaid except for remuneration i received for my time. it was simply about pouring your heart and sweat into an endeavor and then not being recognized for your labors and having others diminish all that effort.

btw, to the Seraphic community (and everyone else):

10 minutes of casual googling turned up these links.

Writer fired earlier this year for plagiarizing from The West Wing:
http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/05/11/writer-at-nbc-sports-fired-for-west-wing-plagiarism/

Plagiarism in the world of television writing:
http://www.dunwich.org/tv/plagiatl.html

MIT's recommended links on how to cite and use sources:
http://web.mit.edu/writing/Special/citing.html/citing.html

Discussion of plagiarism, with examples:
http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/ccj2020/apa.htm

From the Wikipedia entry on Lou Grant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Grant_(television_series)
The series also took serious examination of ethical questions in journalism, including plagiarism, checkbook journalism, entrapment of sources, staging news photos, and conflicts of interest that journalists encounter in their work.

I'm just sayin'....

I am late to this discussion but am disturbed by the tendency of some to explain and excuse what has always been the "capital crime" of writing, plagiarism. I do not read DB; as a Conservative Blogger I would be much more distressed by a Conservative Blogger plagiarizing than by a liberal or leftist Blogger doing so. (If you need to have that explained to you then you have no understanding of what people like Robert and myself are trying to do in the Blogopshere.) Human beings have not been referred to as the "rationalizing animal" for no reason. Bright people, like TM, BTA, are adept at using language to distance reality and minimize its impact. Having worked my way thorugh all the comments on Robert's first post on Internet plagiarism, what was striking was the various degrees of rationalization of those who were ready to excuse/minimize DB's plagiarism. First of all, a Blogger cannot plagiarize "inadvertently"; when you cut and paste, you know it. Secondly, minimizing "only" 10 occurences of plagiarism is using the same mechanism that supports the current "truce" with the Palestinians and excuses Gazan rockets into Israel because they are so inaccurate; ie, in this manner of thinking, only a few examples of plagiarized articles and rockets do not constitute serious transgressions. Once words have been stripped of their absolute meaning, they can be used to mean anything. Again, plagiarism has long been recognized as the one inexcusable crime a writer can commit; to now say that if it is only done on rare occasions it is not so bad, is a rationalization of the highest order.
The well trained post-modernist denies that ethics and morals are connected to religion because only then can they support moral relativism. If G-d exists (even if only as a human construct) then morality is firmly anchored and is immutable; that doesn't mean we are always able to adhere to our moral demands but we are no longer able to rationalize that our transgressions don't really count.
Once langauge and core concepts have been devalued, we are left with amorality (the Ten Suggestions instead of the Ten Commandments). Those who excuse plagiarism have indeed lost their way.

Addendum: Early in my Blogging career, I e-mailed one of the higher order Bloggers with something I had written, which related to one of his posts. The next day I was distressed to see him approvingly quote me without attribution (or a link.) I did not think this was a minor slip and have not been back to his site.

robert,

some of db's advocates have defended his theft on account of his alleged good intentions (promoting further discourse, etc.).

i find it ironic that they are invoking the "ends justify the means" principle.

shrinkwrapper:

"a Blogger cannot plagiarize "inadvertently"; when you cut and paste, you know it."

exactly. i don't understand how ppl keep on writing that he did this by accident.

"minimizing "only" 10 occurences . . ."

i asked the minimalists on robert's previous post how many incidents of plagrism must be uncovered before one can make an issue of it. 50? 100? 1000? i still await a response.

Ok, I'm back, can't resist. The idea of "minimizing" this is clearly relative. Every one of DB "defenders" has said it was wrong. Thus they are only minimizing to the extent some people seem to think this is a capital crime. I know the Writer's Guild of America pretty much does, but there are far worse "crimes." Really, to say it was criminal (as DB himself said in a self-flaggelating) is pure hyperbole.

Yes, it's bad, move on. You can bet he won't do it again.

Now, what about those pederast rabbis and their defenders? There are so many stories percolating to the surface about this topic ever since the New York magazine article on "Rabbi" Kolko came out. DB's site featured a lot of debate about it.

If there is one outrageous thing about orthodoxy (and there are several) it is the willingness of orthodox jews to cover up for these rabbis, either out of a halachic impulse not to be a mosser (informer) or out of fear of ostracism.

Think of what is happening to these young boys. There is a Rabbi named Mondrowitz who is perhaps the most monstrous rapist of jewish boys known, and he has gone unpunished. He fled Brooklyn after being indicted by the DA.

He fled to- where else- Israel- where he is a respected rabbi teaching and "counseling" whom else- but young boys. He is reputed to be up to his old tricks.

Is there anyone on this site who would like to pool our collective energies toward exposing people like this man to justice? 2 of the boys molested by him have committed suicide. The Israeli government refuses to extradite him to New York on technical grounds.

Let's move on to a far more important issue for the blogosphere (which was the sine qua non of catching and arresting Kolko after 3 decades). Anyone who wants to pitch in on this effort, can either do their own investigation or email me.

baaltshuvaanon@aol.com

The best thing is to help the victims, because they have such pressure on them to keep quiet, and such shame and humiliation. It's bad enough what happened to them at their height of innocence, but if we could ease their suffering by making them less shamed, it would be a great first step.

Nice speech, BTA. What do you want, an Oscar? Seriously.

I look forward to reading substantive posts on the subject on your site.

To complete a thought...:

Anyone remember Tim Robbins's acceptance speech for Best Supporting Actor in Mystic River? At the very end he made an emotional pitch to anyone who's suffered any kind of sexual abuse, to seek help, that there's help and hope. I found it sincere and classy. Similarly, I found his the big, blue peace-symbol pin on his lapel a classy way of expressing his antiwar opinion (as opposed to say, Mr. Penn in his acceptance speech that night).

Read my keystrokes: Child sexual abuse, anywhere but especially in devoutly religious contexts, is one of the worst crimes short of murder. It should not be ignored. It should be investigaged and aired with great care, guided by conviction and a ruthless determination to condemn, where necessary, and to heal, where possible. Mr. Robbins was allowed to make his brief but worldwide appeal, however, because he had already addressed the subject with excellence in another form.

For the recognition and the honor were bestowed, technically, for his demonstrated acting ability and not at all for his opinion on the issue. Mark Foley, after all, is walking (stalking?) proof that those esteemed for their stances against predatory behavoir can also be ones who exhibit it.

If I may speak for the Seraphic community here, BTA ... if you have or are going to take pains to document this issue, you will not want for interested and sympathetic readers. What will remain to be demonstrated is what pains you take to at the same time demonstrate that unnameable reverence for Judaism which I think all people are entitled to expect from its adherents, especialy its Orthodox adherents -- and especially from a self-described baal teshuva.

Robert --

I find it odd that you cannot accept the idea that DB has apologized and corrected his posts. He's also looking for any other posts that may be problematic and he's asked everyone to send him any posts they're concerned about. Plus, he asked the weasel to write a guest post on the issue and he published it.

Some of his plagiarism is clearly sloppy writing. Some is plagiarism, it seems with intent. Still, what more do you want from him?

People can choose to read him or not. What more can you ask for?

As for BTA's remarks about rabbinic sexual abuse, this is well documented many places, including here.

Robert, have you covered this abuse? Have you tried to do anything to protect Jewish children from rabbinic sexual predators?

Maybe you should turn your energies to that. You would actually be helping people.

And don't read DB. Tell others not to, either, if you want. But stop beating him already. How much more teshuva does a first time offender need to do for a non-violent crime?

I would pity those ignorant of the evils of plagarisim if they ever went back to college. My English class spent a solid hour hashing over every possible manifestation of the problem, following the required reading of a booklet entitled "Academic Integrity." We got the message- I'll bet half my class woke up that night screaming "I cited it, I cited it! Really I did!"

Jerimiah,

I appreciate your advice. I will post on my site in the near future. However, this issue has some legs, so I mention it where it isn't mentioned and there are Jews who are outraged by things that are so petty in comparison, such as DB's plagiarism and Netui Karta. There are some other blogs doing a fine job, Shmarya's being a top dog in that category. that's failedmessiah.com for those who aren't aware. Dovbear has been featuring important articles on his site as well.

I mentioned this issue here because it is something we can all agree on. Now, I'm not a ba'al t'shuva anymore, unless there is such a thing as an atheist returning with repentance to atheism, but the I do continue to identify with the same ideals that drew me to yiddishkeit in the first place- the power of community being one of them.

But the interesting aspect of Orthodox Judiasm for me is how the community can be either a force for good or evil in a way that an ordinary "neighborhood" cannot.

For example, consider that the first thing many frum jews do when they hear about a Rabbi being accused of molestation, is express some form of pious denial, finding favor in their fellow man, they might say. Or refusing to accept loshon hora. Some of these rabbis are not arrested and are then accepted in the same community where the accusations arose, or they move elsewhere.

The amazing thing, is that these rabbis (and yes, this pattern happens again and again) are *forgiven* and covered for. Their protectors might say in private "he's done t'shuva." Well, that kind of thinking doesn't really follow the halachos of tshuva. For example, on Yom Kippur it is said that Hashem can only absolve the sins between the petitioner and god, but not between the petitioner and those he's wronged. So, why on earth would these guys feel like they can overlook a child molester's sins, even if he's a rabbi, even if he's contrite, if the VICTIM has not forgiven him or been compensated in some way.

Of course, none of this even addresses whether a molester can ever really do t'shuva, since the rate of recidivism is so very high.

Now, as for the positive communal aspect of judaism. I believe, that despite the despicable invocations of Mattisyahu Salomon at the Agudath convention this year to "sweep it under the carpet," I believe it won't be too long before this issue is addressed in open fora by the Jewish communities themselves. Perhaps they'll watch a consciousness-raising video on Tisha B'Av rather than another lashon hora video.

This issue has been swept under the carpet for too long. I hope you won't wait for me Jerimiah. But if you do, I hope I can help prevent at least one kid from having his life ruined.

On that note, I've heard through the grapevine that Mondrowitz may get his comeuppance after all. Maybe even before next Rosh HaShona. Let's hope so for the sake of the children he is *currently* working with.

"Just ask Dan Rather."

Quick comment on that for the moral purists here. Dan Rather got the wrong (fake) document, but Bush was AWOL from the plum National Guard gig that his daddy power-brokered for him so he could escape Vietnam.

It's just amazing how you can overlook the truth based on these Rove-inspired campaigns. What do you think about guys in the military getting shipped off now so Bush can somehow save face, when Bush himself chose to keep sucking on his silver spoon and stayed with the Air Guard on safe ground?

Meanwhile, the swift boat guys found a way to make Kerry sound like the coward and liar not Bush, when Kerry actually went into harm's way on 2 or 3 tours. And now, we have this right-wing blog trumpeting about journalistic integrity!

Btw, since you like journalistic integrity so much, Mr. A, how do you feel about the Bush admin's paying people to do "letters to the editor" favorable to their policies, without disclosing same?

Or using government money ($1.4B according to the source below) to advertise their propaganda, like the "Same Medicare. More Benefits" CBS ad that had to be pulled?

Bush and Rove have treated the press more like Putin would than Jefferson. Think about that as you ride your high horse about plagiarism!

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bush_administration_propaganda_and_disinformation

I mentioned this issue here because it is something we can all agree on.
That may be good and true, yet you are also saying that plagiarism, the reason for this thread, is not something we can all agree on. Regardless of what other subjects we may agree on, what point is there in continuing to comment within this post? I see none.

unless there is such a thing as an atheist returning with repentance to atheism
I don't see how any group of faithful would lend an outside critic, making such a statement, the benefit of the doubt.

In sum, the burden is on you, not on Seraphic Secret, to pursue the issue. And not in this thread.

Ok, Jer, but that's not how blogs generally work, although it seems you may have previously written a guidebook to blogging protocol modeled on parlimentary procedure... FYI, time and again blogs go off on a tangent. And if there ever were a blog in need of a new direction it is this one. But it seems you'd prefer a "plagiarism ethics blog" dedicated to your true passion.

Or perhaps, the cognitive dissonance created by dialoging with one who doesn't believe the same fairy tales as you is too great to bear. So, I'll leave you to this stimulating blog.

BTA:

“Yes, it's bad, move on. You can bet he won't do it again.”

Why not? Do you know him personally that you can vouch for him? No one I know knows who he is, so I see no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.

“If there is one outrageous thing about orthodoxy . . .”

Bravo. With one broad stroke you have reduced a wide spectrum of Orthodox opinion into one ignorant statement. This is where you demonstrate to me that everything you write stems from a chip on your shoulder for Orthodoxy. (Regardless how much you would like to believe it, your blog is not merely about open intellectual pursuit.) You have no idea what you are talking about. Many Orthodox Jews are outraged at what is going on in this matter. Various Orthodox bloggers have written about it. I myself personally had a post about it recently and I was very involved in this debate over at Hirhurim and other blogs.

(As an aside, few things in the blogosphere bother me more than “Orthodox” bloggers who devote their all their efforts to posting only negative things about Orthodoxy. I am by no means an apologist for Orthodoxy, but there is no way an honest person can write about the Jewish communinty day after day and not even find one positive of aspect to write about. BTA, at least you are honest as to how you fit into the Jewish community.)

And by your own standards, how do I know that YOU don’t care about these boys? Because I found no reference to the problem on your own bully pulpit. So stop using the sexual abuse problem as your ace up the sleeve when you have nothing else substantive to stand on.

You can’t just come and declare that someone is hypocritical for addressing one issue but ignoring another (even if it is more serious). Robert has raised some very valid points about Dov Bear. His position on sexual abuse has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of his views regarding DB.

And for the record, Robert at one point did have some autobiographical posts about abuse (not sexual) in Jewish schools, and these posts (two I think) became a forum for commenters who wanted to throw around very specific allegations (including sexual ones) about yeshivah teachers. The point is that abuse has been covered on his blog more than on your own.

So where does leave you and your trivial pet peeves?

Michal:

Of course, if DB were in high school or college and committed this much, and these forms of plagiarism, he would be expelled.

BTA:

And for the record, invoking tragic stories of sexual abuse in an argument where they don't belong, and especially when there is no evidence that you yourself care about them, is the nadir of hutzpah. But with the evidence of your previous hutzpadik comment, I am not surprised.

You still owe Robert and his family an apology for your egregious arrogance in that matter.

(Hmm, it is very funny to see my comments appear with capital letters.)

Ari:

I'm a punctuation-giver.