Your scene in the gunshop is a scene for a script. True to life!

Pearl:

I'm sorry to report that this happened last week. One of the salesmen told me that women who are being stalked by ex-boyfriends come in to the shop at least once a week. They take extra special care to make sure that these women buy the correct weapon and are aware of the awesome responsibilities of gun ownership.

We can only do so much. The rest is up to someone else.

Robert, I know you're frustrated you couldn't do more, but honestly, thank G-d she met you that day. Your kind words of support and encouragement may well have tipped her in the direction of taking the necessary steps to protect herself.

Oh my goodness. At first, like Pearl, I thought you were writing a scene for a script. But the reality hits a little close to home, you know what I mean?

Jack:

When is enough, um, enough?

Tamara:

She did sign up for a gun-safety class, and she vowed to dump the dangerous flip-flops. The problem is women who are being stalked are almost always on the defensive. It's a miserable way to live. Let's hope she comes out of this ordeal stronger and healthier.

Orieyenta:

At first I thought, oh boy, Orieyenta is going to think this is fiction, and I considered not writing it up. But after a bit of brain-churn, I figured you might appreciate hearing about this incident.

Robert, you did a real mitzvah.

Well done for posting this, not enough people know about it. I don't know what's happening with domestic-related stalking and violence in terms of the figures, but there seems to be more and more of it in the media, for those who care to look.

I do not ask her why she went out with Ned in the first place. The answer is obvious: psychopaths are clever at disguising their pathologies. Evil is seductive.

Well put. I wish people realised how vulnerable young women really are (including young women themselves).

I spent a Friday a couple of weeks ago helping teach Cub Scouts how to shoot an arrow at a target. When my own son took his turn, I was painfully shocked to realize that he had no clue what to do. He's not particularly clumsy and he's certainly not dumb; he's just had no experience with an actual weapon of any sort.

I have a black powder rifle and a black powder pistol I inherited from my father. I haven't shot them in decades. My wife pressured me to sell the 0.22 rifle, which I now regret. Then again, I can't ignore her convictions, even when I think they are wrong.

Fortunately we live in a very low-crime area. I'm still uneasy.

This ounce of prevention could go far in terms of the "pound of cure" we get in the form of movies made from the dramatic, in some ways melodramatic, stories of women tragically and/or adventurously pushed over the violent edge. Like in Thelma & Louise and the one about the lesbian serial murderer, Monster.

If more women had basic firearms training and were gun owners, there might be lest grist for story mills that turn out such "Look at the tragedies that men drive women to" stories.

Also: This taps into more than one theme of The Hebrew Kid and the Apache Maiden.

When is enough, um, enough?

Forgive me for using a quote from a movie, but Connery's character in The Untouchables puts things quite well when he says:

Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?

That is a philosophy that is applicable in many situations. Sometimes you can get a persons attention by explaining that if they do not cease and desist you will rip off their arm and beat them to death with it, or so I have heard.

There are some concrete measures that abused woman can take, besides going the legal route of orders of protection. Every city has organizations that deal with domestic violence which usually provide safe houses. These are temporary shelters where women and their children can find temporary refuge and counseling when they finally decide to leave the abusive situation. In the case of a stalker, the organizations will provide counseling and practical advice. In Los Angeles it would be the LA Commision on Assault Against Women, (213) 955-9090. One shelter in LA is Rainbow Services (310) 548 - 5450.

That was a very powerful slice-of-life narrative. Although, I have never been stalked or threatened by a man, I can truly understand how fearful she must be. Dating in this day and age is a risk. You never know exactly what you're getting into when you let someone else get close. I'm grateful my dating days are over!

I think it was Providence that put you in the same place at the same time with that young woman, and I hope Providence will continue to keep her safe from that creep.

Sara:

Thanks so much. I hope I performed a mitzvah.

Alice:

I believe there has always been terrible violence against women by men—only now it is being highlighted in the media as an important social issue.

Kent:

I remember your difference of opinion with your wife about gun ownership. My opinion follows halacha, Jewish law, shalom bayit, peace in the home, especially between husband and wife, is prominent.

Jeremiah:

ounce of prevention, indeed. Unfortunately, too many women are conditioned to be scared of guns right from birth.

Jack:

Or so you have heard, eh?

Me too.

Joannah:

I too hope she remains safe. Also hope that she learns to be a good shot.

He should have volunteered to be her body guard and guarded her body closely, as close as humanly possible.

I do appreciate hearing about this incident and you did a good thing. She was so right when she said that the police could do very little for her. And your advice/guidance probably helped more than you know.

Karen wrote about domestic violence organizations. I am not sure about the ones out in LA but here in Miami they are so overcrowded and will not do anything to help unless a physically violent act has occurred and you can prove it. So stalkers can get away with quite a lot. It's a sad situation indeed.

It doesn't sound like the police would take action unless there is at least one incident of actual physical abuse. Which is understandle, since the city resources are probably limited, but at the same time, it's clear that guys like Ned are unstable and should AT LEAST be seeing a doctor (if not locked up). Unfortunately, there's no way to get someone evaluated by a psychiatrist until he's already done some serious harm. It's just sick that completely innocent women like her are forced to leave with apprehension and inability to have a healthy relationships because of creeps like him. I wish there were other options for handling such cases, private organizations which would take care of Neds (I don't mean necessarily killing them), just doing something that would help victims live normal and productive lives, and not having to run constantly.

"She's wearing a cream colored linen baby doll with blue grosgrain trim"
On a lighter note, Robert, I know you are a writer but I didn't know you were a fashionista or did Karen help you with that one?

Orieyenta:

Karen was not suggesting that these organizations and shelters are an alternative to necessary self-defense, she was only putting out what she believes is information that is not widely available.

I'm glad you appreciate hearing about this incident.

Irina:

I believe that Jeremiah has the best idea. Women should be brought up with the notion that weapons are not "bad" not "evil things". They should be raised with the idea that they might have to defend themselves against aggressive men at some point in their lives. Prevention is the core.

Counting on the government, state, the city, volunteer organization, in other words, counting on others to defend yourself is a very bad idea.

Get your girls into K'rav U'mgav classes.

Enroll them in an NRA gun safety class.

Prepare your girls for the worst. Men can be brutes.

Or so you have heard, eh?

I grew up with four sisters.

Carol:

Karen was not with me, so she had no idea what the young woman was wearing.

Look, I work in the film industry, I have spent enormous amounts of time with brilliant and obsessesive wardrobe people, and for a heterosexual guy, I have to admit I know my fashion. I even know that cutting fabric on the bias makes for a fine female figure. I also understand that most women lust for the ultimate stilleto, the perfect ballet flat. I even know how to mix and match, which tortures some women to the point of paralysis, panic, or clinical depression.

For example:

Karen: Robert, what do you think of this outfit?
Robert: The blouse is too closely related in color and hue to the jacket. You need more contrast, more pop. And don't forget a single strand of pearls. Coco Chanel was never wrong about that timeless fashion advice.

Karen immediately goes to change.

P.S. My girlses never listen to me. They think I'm a clueless daddy when it comes to female fashion.

Go figure.

One woman I knew in college -- American, very leftwing, but Zionist -- learned how to handle an assault rifle during her time spent in Israel when she volunteered for the IDF. Trust me: if I thought she was special before she'd shipped out for Zion, I thought she was that much more special after she got back.

True story;
Many years ago when my wife a teenager a local very popular athlete(friend) attempted to rape her after a party. My wife is petite and the athlete about 6'4" 200lbs.
The athlete didn't know who he was messing with.

My wife was wearing a short skirt with a large fastening pin, sensing the iminant rape undid the pin and buried it into his hand severing several tendons. She then fled to safety.

The moral of the story is that women don't always need a gun to protect themselves, most women don't own one.
A woman must resist and use any method to debilitate the attacker without mercy!!

Also, sweet justice prevailed and the athletes career was over due to the injury.
He never told anyone how it happened.

Robert,

Thanks for this insightful blog. Just to let you know, it is being discussed at:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=285296

David:

We are very grateful that you're wife came through this attack relatively unscathed.

We are also very happy that this athlete's career is over. Such should be the fate of all brutes, and worse.

Rape is unforgivable.

No, you don't always need a gun.

But what happens if your attacker is himself armed?

Sometimes, we must resort to overwhelming force. To count on pins or knives or other lesser instruments is to invite disaster.

I have heard of many cases where attackers fled just because a gun was presented as a defensive threat, and the weapon was never even discharged.

Thanks so much for sharing this painful episode. Your wife is a very special woman.

Jerry:

Thanks so much for making me aware of the lively and enlightening discussion about this posting on The High Road. The commenters on that board are incredibly knowledgable about weapons and the 2nd Amendment; their passion is deeply felt. And yes, I am something of an island here in Hollywood——though more and more Conservative writers and directors are stepping forward out of the shadows.

Do stay in touch.

Here's a great resource you can give it the next time you are in a similiar situation. The URL is easy enough to remember.

http://www.corneredcat.com

Check out the site and see what you think. There's lots of great info there.

It's not my website. The author is a female instructor and one of the mods over at http://www.thehighroad.

Her psycho ex may also have obtained a deadly weapon. If so, I wonder which of them is quicker.

Not to sidetrack too much, and I assume this is presented in the NRA safety classes, but if you present a gun, you should be resolved to use it. If your plan was to present the gun to frighten away the attacker, you had a bad plan. If you do not actually have to shoot your assailant, that's a bonus, but it should not be Plan A.

Maj Hilts:

Thanks so much for the valuable comment. I have taken an NRA class and among the rules laid down was: Never present unless you are prepared to shoot and kill.

Trebor:

Thanks so much for the link. I will be sure to study it, and if necessary, pass it on to whomever might need it.

Mr. Penguin:

Let us hope that your scenario never happens, but it's been my experience that more often than not calm and deliberate target acquisition is far more effective than sheer speed.

Thanks so much for visiting and for your input.

My wife was wearing a short skirt with a large fastening pin, sensing the iminant rape undid the pin and buried it into his hand severing several tendons.

As in Ghost Story.

May I respectfully suggest a quality self-defense trainer. http://www.kravmagaofla.com/about.shtml He has specific classes designed for women too.

Also, I echo many of the fine comments about the need for self-defense training, not only the techniques, but also the mental preparation necessary to execute those techniques.

VFRMarine:

We strongly believe in Krav Maga as self-defense training for men and women. Thnaks so much for the link.

We agree, mental preparation is vital.

I spoke with the young lady for some time, but there is only so much one can say to, well, a stranger.

Beleive me, I wish I could have done more.

We'd like to thank you for your service. Semper Fi.

Cut to scene at the police station about 2 weeks later.

"Hi, I'd like to find out about getting a Concealed Weapons Permit."

The officer behind the counter looks at her quizzically. "Why would you need one of those?"

"My ex-boyfriend wants to kill me."

"Well, how do you know that?"

"He's been stalking me. I have a restraining order against him. His name is Ned (last name) and you should have it in your files"

"Well, it might be, but I don't have time to look it up. Has he tried to kill you before?"

"No, but I know he's going to. He's told me that if he can't have me, no one else can."

Trying to give her the brush-off, the officer says, "Well, unless he actually tries to kill you, I really can't do anything. I don't even have an application here, and if I did, you probably wouldn't get it anyways."

"Why not?" Her face becomes white as a sheet.

"That's the way it is here in Los Angeles. The chief doesn't want guns out on the street where they can be stolen and used against his officers."

A dejected look floats across her face. "Well, how can I protect myself when I leave my home?"

Condescendingly, the officer sneers, "Get a can of pepper spray."

She leaves the police station, still fearing for her life.

The women's shelters I know about are very anti firearm. Consider that before sending anyone to a shelter. A different town or state with more reasonable gun laws is a better solution.

Smokey Behr is right. What happens to her once she waits the TEN days to get that pistol. She can't legally take it out of her house in any manner that would help her quickly. So her choice in LA is to become a felon by carrying a deadly weapon illegally or remain a defenseless and scared victim-to-be. Some choice.

If you want to do some good for her, work to change the law. I live in Florida, and while our gun laws are not perfect, they are greatly superior to California's. If you get a CCW (which is "shall issue" without discretion by authorities), you can carry virtually anywhere. And there is no more waiting period for a gun purchase. Even without the CCW, the handgun waiting period is only three days and you can still carry it, loaded, in your car's console, just not about your person.

Better is Vermont's laws: there aren't any. No permission needed to buy or carry any firearm, open or concealed.

Smokey:

Very true. Recently, in the Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods here in LA a gang of predators have moved in to mug Sabbath observing Jews who walk alone at night—in spite of the fact that we do not carry money on the Sabbath. They want watches, jewelry, whatever. A Rabbi was badly beaten up, his arm broken. He is now afraid to leave his home at night.

Several people now regularly carry sidearms. Better to be a potential felon than a potential victim.

And of course, it's best to change the laws of the state.

Phillep:

I would hope that women's shelters would be anti-evil. To take the overall position of anti-gun seems quite foolish as a gun is an inanimate object. Thanks so much for the disheartening information.

Jalan:

No disagreement from Seraphic Secret. The crime rates in Florida and Vermont for street crime and hot break-ins are well below those states that do not permit CCW's or make them hard to get. Thanks so much for your input.

Better to be a potential felon than a potential victim.

Tell it to Bernard Goetz.

Kishke:

...except in New York:(

On AR15.com we had a dealer in FL post who had to tell a guy that he'd have to wait 3 days for his pistol to protect himself from a guy he fired from the place he owned.

On day 1 or so the buyer was forced to wrestle a gun away from his attacker, and shot the attacker down in his driveway. The dead perp's family and friends continued to make threats.

The next day the dealer lent the buyer one of his personal firearms to have until the waiting period cleared.

Spade:

Terrifying. Thanks for telling the tale.

As mentioned above, biggest single factor is attitude, because the real weapon is between the ears; all else is a tool.

It can be a huge problem to get someone to actually believe that someone actually will hurt or kill them, deliberately. And if someone doesn't really believe that, they won't take self-defense measures seriously. As mentioned above, you wind up with someone getting some weapon, firearm or otherwise, with no intention of actually using it. Which means they're effectively unarmed no matter what they're holding.

Very well-written, and shockingly well thought-out; thanks for putting this up.

A gun is a tool designed to fire bullets. All tools are an extension of the will of those who use them. If the choice is to kill, a gun enables it; if the choice is to scare away, a gun enables it.

The police are charged with stopping criminals during a crime, or catching them afterward. They prevent when they can, but they are not responsible for the safety of the people in their jurisdiction.

I'd strongly recommend the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker (readily available on Amazon).

One theme in it is being aware of your environment. Another is taking action based on probable results. EG, many people "engage and enrage" with a stalker, instead of denying them the response they crave. Each situation is different.

De Becker's firm handles security for heads of state and celebrities, and also (according to the book) for normal people being stalked (sliding payment scale). He has some scary personal insight.

Just a personal recommendation.

And hey, Penguin:

"Her psycho ex may also have obtained a deadly weapon. If so, I wonder which of them is quicker."

If he has, do you fancy her chances more or less unarmed?

De Becker's book is good, but he's a very 'guns are for us experts, not you commoners' type. Otherwise, some very good information there.

Robert,

Interesting story indeed. Thank you for helping that young woman - not everyone would take the time or effort to help a complete stranger, let alone one who has "I've been against guns and violence [their] whole life." Some might have been tempted to debate why this person would assign a value to an inanimate object...




Interestingly enough, that scenario would have been even harder here in the volksrepublik of MA. While MA doesn't have a waiting period per se, the permitting process is quite long and depends entirely on the whim of the chief of police in the town in which you reside. Waits of 3-4 MONTHS are not common. Police chiefs can and have decided that they will no longer issue or renew ANY permits - and when that happens, you have three choices: Move, turn all your guns in, or become a felon.




This woman would have had to have taken a gun safety course (with which I don't disagree), then gone to her local chief of police with $100 in hand and a completed application. Some towns have additional hoops - Boston proper requires a proficiency test before issuing a permit, made all the more Kafka-esque by the fact that public ranges are few and far between, and you can't even own so much as a single piece of brass without a permit.




Now, once her permit application has been submitted, she plays the waiting game. A friend of mine waited over 100 days for his permit, and when it came in, it was a "target and hunting only" restricted permit. Essentially, he was allowed to do what you in CA can do without a permit: buy a firearm and keep it in his home.




Meanwhile, an hour north, no permit is required for anything other than concealed carry. If a NH resident wants a concealed carry permit, it costs $10 and the turnaround time is a week or so.




And if that's too long with a psycho ex-boyfriend after her, open carry is perfectly legal...

Hi Robert and Karen,

Having been stalked by a member of my old shul down in Los Angeles County (I moved to Someplace-Else-in-California), I can share my experiences.

I am in my 40's and had never dated the Stalker. I never (in my mind) ever, ever expressed even the most remote interest in him. I was busy with a boyfriend that I absolutely adored then and adore more now that we live in the same county. The Stalker was a married gabbai in his late 60's. I did not know what he was up to because I had a serious injury and he was offering "as a friend" to drive me to a couple doctors' appointments. (I had a broken/dislocated shoulder and couldn't drive.)

He started calling at all hours of the day - and night to both my cell phone and home phone. (I disconnected my cell for 18 months, mostly because AT&T overcharged me $1200 and thought I would pay it, but I didn't replace it because of Stalker-Boy. Then I got caller ID on the home phone and only answered it if I knew the number/person calling.)
Then he propositioned me and, when that failed to get the desired response, he assaulted me in my office. Which happened to be the shul. To which Stalker-Boy had a key. He showed up at the shul and would sit in my office talking. When I turned my back on him, you know, to work, he would get up and turn my chair to face him. When I yelled at him and told him to get the "F" out of my office, I usually got one of two responses: either (a) he would storm out (my favorite) or (b) he would stay in the hall and sob. This crap went on for months. I started looking for other jobs, hard to find when one is not able to drive and had the self-esteem of a turnip. I was not sleeping, having nightmares, binge eating, started drinking at night (I didn't drink much alcohol before) and stopped going to religious services (or even social functions) at my shul. And I didn't say anything because I knew nobody would believe me.

A few months later, Stalker-boy bragged to rabbi/friend from another synagogue what he was doing and what he wanted to do - which, from how rabbi/friend reacted, was not anything I would agree to do. Not knowing what was said was crazy-making. Especially since Stalker-boy had military experience and owned firearms. And I couldn't remember if I had said anything about selling my small arsenal - assault rifles and hand guns. (I went through a phase of liking guns a lot - and I had two boys who wanted to be in law enforcement, so I had an excuse. My favorite handgun was a S&W snub-nose.308 - really nice piece.)

Rabbi/friend encouraged me to go to my Rabbi. The fact that Rabbi had just been released from the hospital after almost dying, I was reluctant. I thought the police route would be more effective. Plus, I "knew" he wouldn't believe me. He trusted Stalker-Boy with keys to the shul, for goodness sake. And I had ratted him out to the Board of Directors for something I thought was not right. (The Board disagreed.) Rabbi/friend explained that Orders of Protection are most effective after the Complaintant was dead. Less effective before assaults occur.

SO we sat and talked to Rabbi about Stalker-Boy: me, rabbi/friend and Rabbi. He,as I predicted, did not believe me. Thought I was imagining things. (Yup.) The rabbi/friend asked me to leave and he told Rabbi everything Stalker-Boy told him, or so I was told.

Rabbi called Stalker-Boy in for a meeting and confronted him. Made him write an apology letter to me, approved by Rabbi. He was not allowed to come in the building when I was working and he had to give Rabbi a letter of which services he would attend and he was not allowed in when I attended.

I have to tell you that it did not make me want to come to shul more. I became even more of a recluse since everyone asked about when Stalker had gone off to. A couple years later, his wife asked him to leave and he moved to Oregon. I still receive emails occasionally from Stalker-Boy, which I forward to both Rabbis with a note reminding them that I think a heart-attack, shark-attack or even a large dose of cyanide would do him a world of good.

Last winter, I moved out of county and have a new job. I thought I was safe. Then a friend called and told me Stalker-Boy was moving back to LA. (I live 4 hours away and asked everyone I know to not give out my address or phone number. Unfortunately, he has my boyfriend's name and address...*sigh*) Two months ago I received an email for SB. I started having nightmares and binge eating. Darling BF suggested the Order of Protection, but, in order to get one, I need to have his address. If I ask around for it, Stalker-boy could get the f-ed up idea that I want to see him.

I tell you, nothing - and I mean nothing - says Female Safety - like a loaded firearm and woman willing to pull the trigger.

Thanks for the blog.

Tammy

Tammy:

Thanks so much for narrating your horrific story for us. We wish you safety and happiness.