Robert, aren't orthodox Jews permitted to lie to protect an innocent life? Including their own?

Which seems like a perfectly good moral principle. I would like to think G-d would have justified me in looking the Gestapo man in the eye and telling him, no, there are no Jews here, as the Jewish family I was protecting in my attic kept as quiet as possible.

I realize taqqiya is a very different concept, that it's not about protecting innocent life, but I would be interested in your views on when it is permitted to lie. I suspect they are very much like my own.

nice story bout Shimon Waronker - reminds me of another fellow - david lazarus. more about him here:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=10430

Kent's comments remind me of a long discussion I had many years ago about Shalom Bayit and Pikuach Nefesh. I hate to say it, but it is so long ago I can't really remember how it got started or what we decided. I just remember how interesting it was.

The article about Shimon Waronker was interesting, but I would find it more surprising if he had been FFB.

Kent:

A principle of Jewish law is: “Deena d'malchuta deena.”

This means that Jews must obey the laws of the land where they are citizens.

As long as the regime is righteous.

Obviously, a regime that oppresses its citizens becomes illegitimate. The Talmud deals with this in detail.

Judaism has no ideology like "taqiyya," which justifies the most amoral, nihilistic actions to further religious and imperial warfare in the name of jihad.

Kent :

"... I realize taqqiya is a very different concept, that it's not about protecting innocent life, but I would be interested in your views on when it is permitted to lie ..."

am not a Rabbi, but am Orthodox, from a traditional Jewish home for generations, and can tell you what i've seen done

it is permitted to lie in life and death situations, as you mentioned in your Gestapo example, and other similar examples of grave danger, (I refer you to Victor Hugo's beautiful example of Sister Simplice in Les Miserables (for reasons beyond me, it never made it to any of the English films, [aah, *some* screenwriters ... ;-)])

in other circumstances it is permitted for reasons of 'kindness', i.e. telling a wife or girlfriend that she's beautiful, when for whatever reason, at that moment, it isn't 'exactly' so ...

that said,
it is ABSOLUTELY NOT permitted to lie in contracts, agreements, treaties, etc.

the fact that the treaty is with an enemy is irrelevant,

taqqiya is an absolutely abhorrent concept, and should be considered so, to any sincerely devout person of any religion

to premeditatedly make agreements deceitfully to advance one's religious conquests in a time of peace, just because one is not yet in a position of might to conquer in battle,
is a sign of gross lack of faith.

Do they think that Allah is 'incapable' of delivering Allah's enemies into their hands, when Muslims act honorably and swear on the Koran?!

is Allah so impotent that Allah requires deceit and dishonor from his followers?!

it is mind-boggling that this concept is promoted by religious Muslims who purport to be totally self-sacrificing for the Honor of Allah

Josh:

Thanks so much for the link. Yes, I remember reading about the amazing David Lazarus.

Kent, under Jewish law, one is permitted to violate any Biblical law to save one's life (or the life of another), with three basic exceptions: one may not kill, adulter, or worship idols, even if refraining would mean one's death. Obviously, then, it would be permitted to lie to save life. [Of course there are exceptions to the rule, and it gets complicated, but that's the basic law.]

I'd also point out that the comparison to taqiya is not really solid (as you yourself noted): in the one case, one lies to protect life; in the other one lies to take life.

" ... Victor Hugo's beautiful example of Sister Simplice in Les Miserables ..."

well, seeing that it's Sunday, and people may have some extra time, and Robert hasn't recommended any films yet, ;-)

here are the relevant selections from Les Miserables:

http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/hugo/miserables/55/

http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/hugo/miserables/60/

http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/hugo/miserables/68/

http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/hugo/miserables/69/

and now, that you are somewhat acquainted with the characters,
the final selection:

http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/hugo/miserables/70/

(btw, Robert, Josh,
his name is Lazerson, a close friend and old neighbor, he used to teach Learning Disabled children in inner city schools in Buffalo, and was also a major force in restoring peace and promoting understanding after the '91 Crown Heights riots
[the Mario van Peebles film didn't begin to do him justice,
those *screenwriters^ again ... ;-) ])

Didn't Lazerson write Skullcaps and Switchblades, about his experiences as a public school teacher?

Exdem:

Oh, those dopey Hollywood screenwriters:)

For all the talk about "international law" as it applies in the Middle East, it's remarkable how few reporters do what you did: actually look up the Geneva conventions. They just accept the Arab interpretation of them at face value.