"... Israel will never break out of this self-defeating cycle unless she changes the rules of engagement. ..."

the rules of engagement are clear,
the rulers of Israel are the problem,
and are what need to be changed

with the current leadership,

maybe the only thing that might get them to fight,
is to have the NYT and/or/ Condoleeza Rice/Barak Obama/ 'popular liberals du jour'/etc.
visit gaza and get taken captive by Hamas ...

Robert,

All I can add is a hearty "amen".

BTW, you are totally correct in your obervation regarding S'derot. However, when the missiles start falling on Ashkelon, ahem, a REAL city, then it's time to send in the troops for some cosmetic procedures.

It's shameful.

Robert has made the point many times before that Israel's reluctance to do what needs to be done is not because of U.S. pressure, but simply the leadership's own misguidedness.

Even if that's true, I still think the ANTICIPATION of U.S. objections plays a big role here. If so, the Israelis must seize the opportunity that I think this election year offers her to strike decisively:

With Barack Obama on the defensive with Jewish voters and John McCain desperately needing to hold on to the mantle of supreme terror fighter, I think that sometime after the nominating conventions, Israel could shut the power for 2-3 weeks in Gaza before heavy bombing commences.

President Bush and Condi would not at that time take the unenviable position of being more appeasement-friendly than the leading presidential candidates.

None of this will probably be realized by the current Israeli government, but that's what I would advise.

By all means! Move here and have your daughters and their husbands move here (and perhaps serve in the army in Gaza). Then, all of you can vote the hard right ticket. As opposed to merely ranting from the safety of California.

Of course, then you would really have to foot the bill for that hard-right policy.

Sorry, but when it comes to far-right OR far-left opinions coming from afar...my reaction is always the same: thanks for sharing, now put your money where your mouth is.

Robert - When it comes to discussing Jane Austen or Military History, I don't deserve to carry your screen wipes. However, I want to point out a book to you and your readers which I don't think got the proper respect when it came out a few years ago (in the shadow of 911). Victor Davis Hanson: Ripples of Battle: How Wars of the Past Still Determine How We Fight, How We Live, and How We Think .

Innovative (to me) analysis of Gen. Sherman, showing how his tough way was the most moral, and ultimately humanitarian way to wage war. (Good overview on amazon.com) - RN

" ... By all means! Move here and have your daughters and their husbands move here (and perhaps serve in the army in Gaza). Then, all of you can vote the hard right ticket. As opposed to merely ranting from the safety of California. ..."

Gila,

maybe when YOU move to Sderot, instead of whatever left wing little enclave you orbit, that never sees any terrorist horrors

p.s.

my relatives WERE already in GAZA,
and were forced to leave,
to pay for liberal craziness

and everyone can see what great acknowledgment this got Israel in the media,

and the gratitude and peace from the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank

we would welcome ALL the Israeli liberals to move to California,
(the combined efforts of all Jews everywhere might even help to pay for it),
and then,
when Israel is inhabited only by people who care more about the safety of its citizens,
than liberal opinions,
there might be peace

Kahana Chai

Every time this useless Israeli govt launches and then aborts an operation the window of opportunity for future ops diminishes.In England we barely hear anything positive about Israel and now an op that kills (according to the pro islam bbc)civilians makes it even harder for further action no matter how justified.The IDF needs to act now and not finish untill the job is done.

Gila,
I have made aliyah....
With NBN in December of 2007.
However, I have recently returned to the States.

One of the reasons for my return is that it is difficult for me to reside in a nation where I do not believe the leaders have the safety of its citizens in mind.

I think it is an important qualifier for any nation to defend and protect it's citizens.

For that reason it is not a great surprise that aliyah has fallen off dramatically.....

I also resent and reject the attitude among Israelis and western olim of a "screw you" attitude" towards the America and Diaspora Jewry.

It's destructive and detrimental to Israel's survival.

Gila, instead of standing on your soapbox and pointing fingers of criticism, maybe your energy should be directed towards bringing Jews together and helping the poor residents of S'derot.

And BTW...

I'm proudly "ranting" from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Home to one of the fastest growing Jewish communities in America. :))

Exdem:

We do not wish kidnapping and captivity upon anyone, even our ideological enemies. Capture by jihadists means torture and often beheading.

We urge the leaders of Israel and America to recognize that repeating the exact same policies of the past only leads the the exact same failures.

Lance:

The Katyushas are of Iranian design and can travel about ten to twelve miles further than the Qassam missiles. Hamas, controlled and financed by Iran, are busy developing more sophisticated mobile missiles at this very moment which will put Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, every major Israeli city, within striking distance.

Hamas will stockpile these weapons and then unleash them at strategic moments. Israel has been slowly declawed. Taught to accept bombardment. Lectured that she can only respond "proportionally." Taught that she exists at the sufferance of her Arab neighbors.

It's psychology 101.

And far too Israelis are captive of the Stockholm Syndrome.

The Arabs speak only of victory.

While Israelis speak of making "painful concessions."

Guess who gets dead in the end?

As the Arabs say over and over again in their media: They have all the time in the world. They will wear down the Jews, then annihilate them.

Under the current leadership, Israel is cooperating in this Arab strategy just beautifully.

It is 1938.

And denial is not just a river in Egypt. It's a universal brainwave among the Jewish people, in Israel and in the Diaspora.

Jake:

Israel has several options in regard to power and fuel to Gaza, one of which might be:

1. Drop leaflets announcing that for every missile launched from Gaza into Israel, the power to Gaza will be totally blacked out for 24 hrs. Ditto for fuel. In this way, let there be no doubt as to who is responsible for the plague of darkness.

Regarding foreign policy. America lost faith in Olmert during the Second Lebanon War, when Olmert failed to use ground forces early in the war as per IDF plans, and instead fought a strategically stupid air war that accomplished very little. When Livni demanded blue helmets on the Lebanese border Bush threw up his hands in disgust and the State Dept. gleefully rushed in and said, "That's our type of people!"

Gila:

Thanks so much for your comment. With all due respect, we believe that clarity, quality of thought and argument, not geography, should be the determining factor in accepting or rejecting ideological arguments.

We've never suggested to any of our commenters, even those who are red-hot anti-Zionists, that they are not entitled to an opinion based on a zip code. In fact, we welcome open discussion, as long as it's free from Jew-hatred and carried out with decency and dignity.

To us, this is a common sense approach in a world where jihad is a threat that crosses all national boundaries.

Real Name:

Thaks so much for reminding us of VDH's fine book. Yes, it's a must read. Sherman was a great general who understood that there is no nice way to make war. He knew that war is hell and so he fought it hard and did not try to make it easy, because that would only prolong the agony.

Thud:

Thanks so much for mentioning civilian deaths. It seems that Israel is held to an impossible standard. They are expected to fight a terrorist enemy who hide among civilians without ever killing a civilian. Though Israel never intentionally targets civilians. Whereas Hamas only targets civilians.

Article 28 of the Geneva Conventions explicitly states that: The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

In short, when the EU and the State Dept. talk about international war crimes, they should be talking about Hamas and not Israel.

We believe that clarity, quality of thought and argument, not geography, should be the determining factor in accepting or rejecting ideological arguments.

Very well put.

As for those who assume that I am orbiting a left wing enclave etc:

1) I live in Tel Aviv for many reasons---I do not live in Sderot for the same reason I do not live in Jerusalem--it is simply not a good place for an older single and it does not offer enough in the way of job opportunities. I am interested in living here--and that includes supporting myself--and not just making a stand and a lot of noise and then running back to the States. Perhaps it is something of an unromantic approach, but it has worked for the last 6.5 years, and gotten me through a recession and the intifada, so I plan to stick with it.

2) As for helping the poor citizens of Sderot and elsewhere in Israel-I vote (here), I am politically involved (here), I work (here), I give to charity (here), I pay taxes (here), I volunteer (here) and last week I even took a bus down to Sderot and did my shopping. Maybe that won't cure all ills, but it will do a bit more than ranting from afar.

3)As for opinions etc--you may feel a certain way, but please bear in mind that there are many here, in Israel, who feel as I do. Sure, the people who agree with you here will be quick to back you up...but guess what they will be screaming once the person ranting is left wing? "Come here first, and then talk!" I, at least, am being a bit more honest, and have the same attitude towards both sides. Yes, you are entitled to have opinions. And so am I. :)

On the flip side, I do not plan to vote in the US elections, pretty much based on the same principle. If I am not paying for it, I have no business determining how high the bill will be.

4) As for my never seeing any terrorist horrors...may I refer you to my blog? (Robby--sorry for being so rude as to self-promote here, but in this case it seems appropriate).

Gila

The Reuter's article you referenced quoted a "furniture salesman" headed out to the front stating, "My children and wife (sic - notice the order) are very dear to me,” he said. “But reward in Heaven and the homeland are dearer.”
This is perfect! As Gen. Patton (or George C. Scott) was to have said, "Your goal is not to give up your life for your country - your goal is to get the enemy SOB to give up HIS life for HIS country!"

Gila, with respect, the mere fact that someone lives abroad does not mean that they have no stake in what happens in Israel. Many of us have close family living and invested in Israel (I certainly do, and I know that Robert does as well). It matters very much to me what happens to them, and to our property there, and provides more than sufficient grounds, in my view, for me to have a legitimate say.

In fact, apropos to your unfortunate experience, I (and I'm sure others) know Americans who were killed or wounded in terrorist attacks. Haven't they or their famillies earned a right to have their opinions taken seriously?

You spend money in Sderot? Well, most of us spend money in Israel, through visiting, sending children to study, etc. We too are invested there (although perhaps to a lesser degree), and so, like it or not, have earned the right to comment.

Gila,

" ... As for my never seeing any terrorist horrors...may I refer you to my blog? (Robby--sorry for being so rude as to self-promote here, but in this case it seems appropriate). ..."

am very sorry and apologize,

i thought you were 'Ted' under a different name,

the line of:

" ... but when it comes to far-right OR far-left opinions coming from afar...my reaction is always the same: thanks for sharing, now put your money where your mouth is... "

was almost identical to Ted's

that said,
what about Robert's point?

"... that clarity, quality of thought and argument, not geography, should be the determining factor ..."

to brush away a person's argument because they live somewhere else, is simply refusing to deal with the logic of the argument

you have valid reasons for not living in Sderot,
--accepted.

others have valid reasons for not being able to live in Israel yet.
(my mother is there, my sister is there, my father's and my daughter's graves are there, my money goes to the displaced of Gush Katif, the needy of Chevron, and other areas,
and i wish i 'could' live there,
but mine is a long other story ...)

by your reasoning,
where does someone draw the line?

(a person lives in Israel, but not in a danger area, or doesn't serve in the army because of age, or does serve, but not in combat, or does serve in combat, but as a pilot, not in ground forces, ...
the list can be extended indefinitely ...)

a reasonable deciding factor should be,
'does the person sincerely care,
and is the person really affected ?'

it should not be hard for you to accept, how deeply affected Jews are by the death and suffering of other Jews no matter where they may be,

and to feel the pain and frustration of watching more Jewish lives continuously being harmed by governmental decisions that have repeatedly been shown to be mistaken, to be exploited by our heartless enemies who manipulate Jewish good-heartedness as weakness, resulting in more harm,
all of which could have been prevented ...

the Truth should be listened to from wherever it is brought forth

am sorry again,
you deserve more respect than i can give,

but the innocent victims of improper decisions,
deserve even more

'And far too Israelis are captive of the Stockholm Syndrome'

Wikepedia:
Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed.

Once again Robert you use the innapropriate term 'Stockholm Syndrome' when referring to the Israeli "acceptance" or "quiescence" to the present situation with the arabs

I for one(Israeli for almost 20 years) do not suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome. I know of no other Israeli who shows symtoms of Stockholm Syndrome either.
Yes, there are many Left wing extremists (Olmerts wife, daughter) who empathize with the arab cause but to categorize them as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome is a bit far fetched.

I unequivocally deny any feelings of loyalty to the Arab jihadists or there cause.

Robert, I truely respect and value your opinion please rethink your theory about Israelis and loyalty to the arab cause.

Gregg:

Thanks so much for calling me on the Stockholm Syndrome thing.

Sigh.

Confession: Intellectual laziness on my part.

You're right.
I'm wrong.

Won't happen again.

Standing in corner, head hanging in shame, dunce cap firmly in place. Chelm Syndrome.

Robert:
All forgiven

Could not agree more with your post. For what its worth, you might be interested in Alan Dershowitz's WSJ column and my response as it bears directly on this issue:
http://wolfhowling.blogspot.com/2008/03/dershowitz-questions.html

Gregg:

Thanks so much. BTW, next time Karen and I are in Eretz Yisroel, we'd love to meet you. We can drop by your Casa, you and Karen can chat while I stand in the corner:)

Wolf Howling:

Thanks so much for your comment. I'm like “Aw shucks” the mighty WH agrees with yours truly because really, you're one of my blog heroes.

Seriously, I read your posts and I go: Hey, this guy's like one of the Seven Samurai, except he's out to slay Caliphite lunatics.

Great link, great commentary, inspiring blog.

I have always supported Israel and have learned to do so with a tempered tongue. She is surrounded by adversaries and my prayers are with her. That being said I am not a fan of William Tecumseh Sherman . I wonder if Hitler ever read what Sherman wrote to to Grant concerning some of my ancestors. I personally consider the genocide of Native Americans to be the prime template for the final solution during WW2.

First clear off the buffalo, then clear off the Indian. For the gold, we must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux even to their total extermination, men, women and children."-U.S. Army General William T. Sherman-
in a telegram to President U. S. Grant
[img]http://www.iwchildren.org/eagle1/wknbgrv3.jpg[/img]

I have always supported Israel and have learned to do so with a tempered tongue. She is surrounded by adversaries and my prayers are with her. That being said I am not a fan of William Tecumseh Sherman . I wonder if Hitler ever read what Sherman wrote to to Grant concerning some of my ancestors. I personally consider the genocide of Native Americans to be the prime template for the final solution during WW2. This nation has yet to come to grips with the injustice that continues today concerning the rights of the Native Americans .

"First clear off the buffalo, then clear off the Indian. For the gold, we must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux even to their total extermination, men, women and children."-U.S. Army General William T. Sherman-
in a telegram to President U. S. Grant

For what it's worth.... Granted, labeling whole swaths of society as showing signs of the "Stockholm Syndrome" may stretch (or even betray) the term's proper, clinical application.

Yet I know for a fact that a leading psychologist who developed and popularized the term does not regard Islamic violence as a vital or existential threat. During Muslim violence over the Danish cartoons of Mohammed, I had the opportunity to correspond with Dr. Frank Ochberg. He was not interested in identifying specifically Muslim or jihadist causes of the reaction. Instead he was interested in exploring the history of Western political expression.

I'm not a psychologist and didn't pretend to question him professionally. But the irony of where he wanted to place his best attention wasn't funny (to me) - it was disturbing.

Talk all you want. Israelis have given up. Israel is a dying animal. It commands no respect. The left and the feminists have succeeded in emasculating a whole society. Israel could destroy her enemies and live. Instead, Israelis have chosen to die. You can't beat that. This is called "suicide". Period.

Jorge:

Within Israeli society there is an element that has chosen the path of appeasement.

No question.

These are people for whom history and its lessons mean nothing. Further, these are people who cannot articulate a coherent argument as to why Israel should exist as a Jewish State. Worse, they don't even want to know why Israel should exist as a Jewish state. For them to exist as a state like all other states is the ideal.

They are allies to the Arab jihadists.

But there are other Jews in israel who know exactly why they live in israel. They are true Zionists and they are fed up with the post modern Zionism of the chattering classes. They will sweep the next elections. They are slowly but surely attaining powers of position in the army. I believe that Olmert and his corrupt gang will end up on the ash heap of history.