If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's "free."

His stimulus plan" reminds me of the El Monte furniture store in the Cheech and Chong comedy.

"We lose money on every deal - so how can we do this?"

VOLUME!

Regarding the health care issue, by chance (or not) this has been the topic of several conversations at Shabbat meals I have attended over the last several weeks. The concensus: the American system is barking mad. We feel bad for you. Incidentally--the last includes the opinions of a physician here and a physician's wife from the States.

Yes--at times I have to wait for an appointment. (Though not when I had cancer--then I was given priority). On the other hand, I have medical care whether I am well-employed, poorly employed or not employed at all.

Furthermore--I may pay more in taxes, but I don't pay 1) health care premiums (which I understand are even more crazily expensive than when I lived in the States) 2) co-payments or 3) deductibles. My "mas briut" (health tax) is peanuts compared to US insurance premiums. Add to that the cost to the employer of the US system and the numbers are astronomical. Would a taxes involved in a socialized system be cheaper? I do not know, but I do believe that this should be taken into account before one condemns a socialized system as evil by definition.

And-again-I have the security of knowing that even if I lose my job tomorrow and do not find another one, I am not going to have to choose between paying the rent and health insurance. How many Americans can say that? I mean, apart from the wealthy ones?

Gila - if the health care is so bad here why does the Canadian Govt pay over a billion a year sending their citizens here for treatment? Why do patients come from all over the world (including Israel) to get treatment here?

A few years ago my mother was hit by a car and I met her at the UCD Med Center ER - and what a surprise - 100s of Mexicans all milling around talking. Truth is nobody here goes without care but it is a dysfunctional system.

A good part of that can be blamed on the layers - with lawsuits so easy to start Doctors tend to treat "defensively" - giving patients every expensive test to avoid the possibility of a lawyer down the road saying "you didn't do all you could".

My old pediatrician quit after losing a multi- million dollar lawsuit - a baby born with some very rare genetic disease and he didn't catch it in time.

I think the difference - if one who isn't insured has a hideous disease - under socialized medicine they would be put off for years waiting for a "slot" (while the system hopes that they die beforehand) while here - if they are not insured - probably not treated either.

Certainly one can debate this much further but as for me - reading about things like a UK hospital deciding not to change bed sheets for a few days to save costs - or hiring cheap foreign doctors - the terrorist plot that was foiled a few years ago - where was that - Scotland? - with the Mercedes about to blow up - there were a lot of Doctors form Pakistan involved if I am not mistaken.

The problem is not that the doctors or treatments are bad. The problem is that they are often inaccessible to those who do not have health insurance. You hit on this with your comment about Canada--Canada is paying money, and a lot of it, to use US facilities and service providers.

"if one who isn't insured has a hideous disease - under socialized medicine they would be put off for years waiting for a "slot" (while the system hopes that they die beforehand) while here - if they are not insured - probably not treated either."

I would suggest a more moderate example. As follows:

If someone has thyroid cancer, (in a majority of the cases an extremely treatable disease) - under socialized medicine they will receive treatment and be able to go on with their lives while in the US- if they are not insured- they may well end up 1) dying from it 2) going bankrupt trying to treat it 3) putting off treatment to the point that the treatment regimen is much more intensive, invasive and expensive (intentionally or not--no insurance might mean you don't make it to the doctor until the disease is much further advanced) or 4) some combination thereof.

The "hideous disease" is dramatic. It makes for nice rhetoric. It does not make for good decision making. You state that the truth is that nobody goes without care--and cite as support the Mexicans at the emergency room. As in--until they are sick enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room, they may not get care. Would you consider that sufficient care if it were your daughters receiving that level of care? I mean that question seriously.

Regarding Israelis coming to the US for treatment-medical tourism goes both ways. Through my Hadassah buddies here I have heard more than one story of this or that person who came to Israel for treatment of an illness. We have quite a few excellent doctors here....

Gila:

Is there a more unhappy person in the world than an Israeli doctor? Let me know if you find one. The idea that the most hard-working, well-trained, high pressure workers should be paid basically the same as a plumber is a disgrace. I'm not even a doctor and I feel that way because I want the people responsible for my health and the health of my family to be well paid. Here in New York, I'm actually making more than my kids' pediatrician. Look, I work hard and am pretty well-trained, but that's an outrage! And besides, no one can sue me for $1 million if I misspell someone's name on FOX TV.

NOTHING is for free... and the more important something is, the more it costs. This is always true, with the exception of love... but love costs each participant an emotional commitment much more valuable than money. So I guess there is no exception to that rule.

You said that:

"I may pay more in taxes, but I don't pay 1) health care premiums (which I understand are even more crazily expensive than when I lived in the States) 2) co-payments or 3) deductibles. My "mas briut" (health tax) is peanuts compared to US insurance premiums."

First off, you pay A LOT more in taxes... I'll take the 60 bucks a week I pay for health care insurance for my whole family plus a few minor payments during the year over 10-15% more in income taxes any day.

Second, you pay in time. Isn't your time valuable? When you wait in a waiting room for hours or get on a list for months for service, that equals something in dollars. It's bad enough here in the States with Medicare patients jamming waiting rooms as it is. Now we want to give millions more Americans the right to waste my time. Then, after they've made me wait, the pittance the Medicare patients make me pay again, because my bill is higher to help the doctor recoup his/her outright losses to treat them. I am actively seeking out doctors who don't accept Medicare at all... their offices are always less crowded and bills much lower.

Third, you get what you pay for. I assume there are a lot of well-meaning do-gooder doctors out there, but people need to be rewarded for their work. If they're not rewarded properly, believe me, they cut corners. Heaven knows what health advantages you miss out on because your doctors get unfairly paid.

But listen, you're right - the American system is not perfect. But the reason for that mostly is too much insurance and too much government. The insurance companies DO get in the way of patients and their doctors. But the government does this much more with horrible failure programs like Medicare and Medicaid, which have not only bankrupted medicine, they've bankrupted the whole country!

Obama's solution: more insurance and more government. It's like giving a poisoning victim more arsenic.

The best system would be to allow the free market to reign. The myth of the greedy doctor who will pull the plug on granny if her check is late is just that, a myth. Doctors are ethically bound to help poor patients... but here in the states they are also legally bound to treat a lot of people for free, and then they can still get sued by that same charity case!!! Even lawyers in the States get a tax deduction for pro bono work, doctors? Keep dreaming.

Finally, you said:

"I have the security of knowing that even if I lose my job tomorrow and do not find another one, I am not going to have to choose between paying the rent and health insurance."

In America, free health care has ALWAYS been available. It's called the emergency room. Visit one one of these days as a non-patient observor. You'll see dozens of people with minor injuries clogging up the system waiting for free care, because hey, they've got the time and it ain't costing them a dime. A recent study just found nine people in Austin, Texas who have visited the ER 6,000 times since 2003!!! I just interviewed an ambulance driver in Florida who says one of the top 10 reasons people call an ambulance is because they don't want their queesy kids to throw up in their own car.

Give people something for free and they and the providers will soon treat it as worthless.

But Gila, there is something even more important at stake here. And that is the health of the soul. I truly fear for the souls of a nation where everything is doled out by the government, even life itself! Read the Rashis on all the parshiot about slavery in Egypt and the constant whining by the still-government reliant people of Israel in the desert. See what I mean? The slavery was as mental as it was physical. G-d splits the Red Sea and gives them Manna and still, the people started grumbling about their old entitlements every chance they got. And they were slaves!!!

This is the same reason why I am appalled that many Jewish Day Schools are seriously considering asking for government aid. That's just great. What if the govt. says Jewish schools can't be closed on the 2nd day of Yom Tov in return? Is this what we want or need?

Look at Europe, it's a continent devoid of any morality or even a will to succeed. Why? Because most efforts won't get you any further in a socialist system anyway. The people pretend to try and the governments pretend to pay them. It's a devil's bargain.

Gila:

Most people in countries with "free" health care are happy because most people at any one time are not in need of treatment. And a lot of the rationing occurs when people are in the last few months of their life. I don't think people here are ready to buy into telling older people to just take some pain pills and get ready to die because we know you aren't going to last much longer.

We always hear about the 40 million people without health insurance. When you eliminate illegals, people eligible for government aid but don't apply, people that are temporarily between jobs (and insurance) and young people that don't want to pay for insurance you are left with maybe 10 million people. Why should we pay trillions and mess with everything instead of targeting the 10 million?

Giving insurance to everyone without increasing the supply of medical professionals is a sure recipe for rationing. When insurance covers every little scrape and sneeze people lose sight of what medical care actually costs. I would like to give people medical savings accounts with high deductible catastrophic insurance and watch the market take over. But Obama is totally ignorant of market discipline or anything else Adam Smith wrote about hundreds of years ago.

Gila:

A few weeks ago, Karen and I were asked by close friends to take an afternoon shift at Children's Hospital here in LA. Their child was confined due to a pretty serious illness. Karen and I spent all afternoon with our friend's child, keeping her company while the parents tended to various chores.

As we sat in the large, airy lounge we realized that we were the only English speaking people in the area. All the parents, grandparents, and relatives were Hispanic. There were deeply tanned men with calloused hands and gardener's shears on their belts. There were exhausted wives dragging along and scolding unruly siblings.

None spoke English, or if they did, it was broken English.

These were the working poor and, of course, illegal immigrants. And their children were getting the best medical care America has to offer, and I'm pretty darned sure that none had insurance.

In short, in the present system, most sick people get treatment, regardless of their economic status.

No medical system is perfect. But societies that are ideologically driven to treat everyone equally, invariably end up treating most everyone with a high degree of mediocrity.

Israel, a tiny state with just six million citizens, is not a reliable health care model for America.

Gila - you have stirred up a bit of lively discussion! First of all, I would not lump the world into "socialized medicine" - and treat all the countries as if their care was uniform - and the US.

The left here likes to tout Cuba as their idealized model for health care - but I don't know of anyone here (including the most ardent of leftists) trying to get to Cuba for treatment.

In truth - and one of the reasons California has it's well-known money problems - is the cost of health care - and the **abuse** of it by the poor.

What Robert said about his and Karen's visit to a Southern California hospital - is not only not unusual but it is the norm.

In fact there have been hospitals in Southern California close because of the crushing financial burden in treating the poor (and most of those are the illegal people from Mexico here).

A friend of mine is a firefighter- and the stories he tells of being a first responder. California's firefighters have more calls due to first responding for emergency medical calls than actually fighting fires.

He has had more than one call from persons on welfare - with the flu or a cold - wanting a ride to the emergency room - so by law they are taken by an ambulance - at $1000+ - treated in an emergency room at a good another $1000 - all paid by the state's taxpayers.

I'll tell you my own story. I have insurance from an HMO - and am inclined towards high blood pressure. Last summer I was driving and feeling the onset of vertigo - where you know you'd better stop - I pulled into the nearest facility of my insurer and wanted to go to a station to get my blood pressure tested.

Well, this particular facility didn't have a simple BP station but it was recommended that I go around the building's corner to their ER to get the check.

I went to the ER and checked in with their receptionist. She tried to talk me out of going here and instead of going 4-5 miles away to the facility with the BP station, but I wanted my blood pressure checked now. Didn't feel like I should get into a car and go on the road again.

Because of California state laws, the ER people couldn't check just my BP. I had to be hooked up to an EGR (right initials? anyway they hook electrodes all over your body - check everything cardiovascular.

I was in the ER over 2 hours getting all these mandated tests and of course had to pay for it - or at least my deductible which was $150. So take all the working poor who go here for the simplest reasons - and can't pay so they get treated gratis from the taxpayers - add millions of such visits all over the state and you start to get the idea of some of the reasons for the mess we are in.

And I only alludsed partially of the problems our tort system inflicts on the medical costs.

Also there was an article written onluyh a bit "tongue in cheek" at the business magazine Forbes on how GE is contributing to high health costs in the US.

Every time they come out with a nuew muulti million dollar miricle machine the Drs feel they have to buy it - or risk getting sued down the road.

So while there are a lot of reasons why our health system is messed up, the actual care is not one of them. It is the best in the world.

About 15 years ago I was roller skating one Sunday with my daughter and took a nasty spill twisting my knee. I went to a doctor the next day who sent me to get an MRI. The MRI showed I needed surgery. On that Friday I had my knee scoped and was off crutches in less than two weeks after my accident.

Around the same time my sister-in-law was in England for her junior year of college. A friend of her's hurt her knee playing soccer. Limping around for two weeks she finally got in to see a doctor. She couldn't get an MRI on it for two months. She didn't get the knee fixed for another 2 months and they cut her knee open instead of scoping it. A simple ACL repair cost her a year of pain in her knee.

Considering that even in England medical care is not really free I would much rather be in our system, for all it's faults, than in a system where the budget constraints are more important than giving the best care.

Robert, I live in Canada. Usually, I try to avoid discussions with Americans about our medical insurance plans (we have 13, as each province and territory runs its own show), as I think that it's not an outsider's right to tell people what he thinks they ought to do. I'll simply outline some of my experiences.

I'm 74, so I've lived with both government-run and private medical insurance. The only differences I've noticed, aside from higher taxes, is that under our provincial plan, I don't have to submit documentation to my insurance company, nor do I have to get its approval for any procedure recommended by my doctor.

I've rarely spent time in a hospital, except for occasional visits to an ER. About 10 years ago, I injured my eye. Since I live in the boonies, I drove to our village's community clinic. A doctor examined me, and within 2 hour's I was seen by an ophthalmologist, who'd never treated me before that day. I once had to spend about 6 hours in an ER's waiting room, but that was an exception. Usually, the wait has been about 15 minutes.

In the case I cited, the doctor wanted to admit me overnight, but I refused. As a result, I had to wait about 3 months for a CT scan and a special ultrasound test. I was later told that, had I complied with the doctor's suggestion, both tests would have been done the next morning.

About 6 months ago, I underwent neurosurgery to bring under control an inherited neurological problem. Actually, I had neurosurgery on a Monday, remained in the hospital for four more days, at which point a pulse generator was implanted in my chest, and was discharged on Saturday morning. My total out-of-pocket expense was about $700, $500 of which covered the extra charge for a private room. The flat fee for the neurosurgery was $100.

The neurosurgery was an elective procedure, as the problem wasn't life threatening. As a result, I waited a total of about 3 years after deciding to proceed. That time involved evaluation by a series of neurologists, various tests, including an MRI, and a one year wait because I refused the treatment first suggested, and because I insisted that I wanted the surgery performed by a specific surgeon, who is reputed to be the best in Canada for the procedure in question.

I've been too long-winded. Would I want to go back to private insurance coverage? Not a chance. Do I think our system is fault-free? Nope. No system is perfect. Yes, we have occasional horror stories, but so does every other system of medical insurance.

Just my two cents' worth.

Hugh, I just read two articles tonight in which the much-vaunted Canadian health care was not exactly doing a great job. One was on how private clinics are opening up like crazy in those provinces that will allow them to; apparently, not everyone is being served as well as you and are willing to pay for care. The 2nd article talked about a preemie born with medical problems in Hamilton, shipped to a Buffalo, NY hospital. Why? Because the Hamilton hospital's NICU did not have the facilities. Why? THEY WON"T PAY FOR THEM, and instead they sucker the US to pay for the kids.

Lest one think this is the problem of one hospital in one part of Canada, apparently it's a ubiquitous problem and there have been dozens of these kids transferred to US facilities from Canadian ones, the length of the US-Canadian border.

So, one way to keep the Canadian system viable is...outsource the expensive care to the good ol' US of A, where no child was turned away. And by anyone with the ability to pay, as an adult, would run when the Canadian system made it illegal to get any faster treatment.

I'm glad you had good experiences, but there have been enough horror stories..and granted, we have our own here, and I would like to see the 'system' changed, but to give more power into the hands of more uncaring bureaucrats, and there is no more uncaring one than a govt. bureaucrat, who cannot be forced to give a DAMN about you and can't be fired for even gross malfeasance and incompetence, is just insane.

One argument that has not come up is the fact that doctors have an extensive training period - Undergrad BS-4 yrs, Med School-4 yrs, residency 3-5 yrs, depending on specialty, all at an exorbitant cost. So they graduate with $100-150 THOUSAND in debt - now what? The doctors are supposed to subsist on $40-80K per year? Work how many hours/day and how many days a week PLUS be on call for the remainder of that time? And then, even though you're the one with the MEDICAL training, some person with MAYBE a MBA will have the right to question your MEDICAL decisions and/or treatment orders? AND THEN, after you've done your best to heal the parient, you get sued because the nurse wasn't friendly enough or, through no fault of your own, something goes wrong? and you get to be vilified in public, have your family/business/life destroyed....

Eh, nobody with any self respect or sense of justice would touch that job with those conditions or possible scenarios.

Nope - not me. And, as you can see, there are places that cannot attact doctors for love nor money.

Just think when Obama tells doctors they are only allowed to make a salary of X. Yeah, that'll get the best brightest to sign up for Med school. NOT.

What can I tell you about Israeli health care? I have Kupat Holim Meuhedet coverage. A few years ago, it took me a week to get a boil lanced.

I'm dumb. What is an MRI?

For the record, I want my doctor to make enough to pay off the med sch bills and live at least as well as an Investment Banker before the SHTF.

Or US Senator. Well, may not with the $1.5-4.6 Million expense account. And not with the pass to bresk any laws or discard all sense of morality/decency/propriety.

Eh, obviously time for bed.

Obama isn't selling the Brooklyn Bridge. He's selling the Williamsburg Bridge, which, unless its been VERY thoroughly renovated since the last time I walked across it, is in much worse shape.

Miranda - MRI -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_Resonance_Imaging

I remember reading some time ago of its origins - just recently in the early 70s - forget exactly how it was invented but it was a good tale - when I can remember ;-)

One big reason why Canadians have enjoyed government-sponsored health care, (with its faults), for so many years is because their government could afford to pay for such entitlements because the U.S. paid for what would otherwise be its biggest expense: defense.

Yes, Canada has a military, but it has the liberty of being so paltry because the U.S. foots the real bill for defending North America and the free world.

But even without a serious defense expenditure for so many decades, Canada is still finding it hard to pay for these entitlements now.

That's because entitlement, socialized societies always end up killing the economy and wealth.

And yet, our current president and Congressional leaders are dying to make this same mistake.

Change we can believe in.

Miranda, an MRI is a body or head scan, similar to a CT scan, except that it uses powerful electro-magnetic radiation, instead of the ionizing radiation of X-rays. Apparently, it can reveal much more detail of internal organs than X-rays can. Other than that, I haven't got a clue, as I know virtually nothing about medicine.

Jake, I agree with you about Canada's failure to maintain a powerful military force. It's a disgrace in my opinion. Our forces are well-trained, but they're relatively, poorly-equipped, and extremely small. The only saving grace is that, since we elected a Conservative government several years ago, more money has been allocated to defence, and we've carried our weight in Afghanistan.

Maurice, you made some good points. As I said, our system is far from perfect. However, Whenever anyone is sent by the Ontario Ministry of Health for medical treatment in the States, the cost is covered by the provincial insurance plan. At least, that's what I've read. That applies to any medically necessary procedures.

Private medical providers have always existed in Ontario. They're not a recent phenomenon. They deal with services not covered by the provincial medical plan, services such as plastic surgery, some physiotherapy or private nursing services, and medical tests. As I understand it, the plan covers services by physicians, considered medically necessary. Anything else is paid for out of the patient's pocket, or by private insurance plans. For example, I pay about $150 per month for private, group medical and dental insurance. It covers much of my expenses not covered by my provincial insurance. I end up paying a reasonable "co-pay" for each service.

American taxpayers don't pay to provide medical services to Ontarians (and I assume the same applies to all Canadians treated in the States). Such costs are covered by provincial medical plans, private insurance companies, or by the patients themselves (in cases where the patient is not willing or able to wait for the procedure). As I mentioned, if a wait endangers the patient, the government plan covers the expense.

I admit there probably are some horror stories. My point is that they're the exception, not the rule. I suspect that, were you to poll all Canadian adults about government medical insurance, the vast majority would never consider giving it up. Again, I can't prove this, as I have no expertise. It's just my impression. By the way, though I support our system, I'd gladly accept a change that would require a patient to pay a reasonable (based upon ability to pay) fee for each service received. I think a change like that would improve our system.

Hugh:

Pretending that any socialized medical plan works simply defies every economic and mathematical law on the books.

Anything of value costs money, so people getting health care are paying either by:

1) Out of pocket money

2) Taxes

3) Loss of time

4) Loss of quality of care, (the docs pretend to care and you pretend to pay them).

If everyone really just paid the darn doctor for service, instead of an insurance company, the taxman, or other middleman, the cost of healthcare would really fall. Catastrophic insurance is the only kind of middle man plan anyone should really have.

Some really good doctors in this country are now offering flat fees per year for service. No insurance. No forms. A 10:00 appointment is really a 10:00 appointment. No waiting. I considering doing this for my family because the price is about the same as my annual insurance premium.

Another thing we absolutely need is tort reform. About HALF the expensive tests in the U.S. system are ordered as defense against future law suits, not because of any real medical need. This makes everything more expensive and wastes more time as well.

Canada and Europe do have it right on that score as malpractice suit rewards are much lower and there is not a major malpractice legal industry there. I want doctors to pay if they make a real screw up, but the fact that most doctors can find themselves bankrupt thanks to a snazzy lawyer and a medically non-savvy jury is terrible.

As for polling Canadians, I agree that 70% or even 80% of Canadians would probably say they like or even love their health care. But that is because:

1) They don't know what they're missing

and

2) Who in the history of the world has rejected an entitlement? (no matter how lousy it was in retrospect).

Again, look at Bible. Even the freed Jewish slaves longed for the pittance entitlements the Egyptians "gave" them.

If you tell the Dr. or the health care provider that you're paying yourself, you almost always get a lower rate than if insurance is paying. I do. Same with hospitals--even cancer treatment centers. People are always willing to play let's make a deal. I don't understand why more people don't do this. True, catastrophic illness or injury can get expensive, so it make sense to have insurance for that, but for routine visits? Just pay.

Mark:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

This is what we call the free market.

It's always better than government-controlled models.

For the truly poor and helpless, there is charity. And if the government wants to encourage charity with tax deductions, great. But mandating charity doesn't work.

Mark, I'm not pretending that socialized medicine is a superior system to that involving only privately purchased insurance. I'm simply saying that, for the most part, it seems to work pretty well here.

It's not an entitlement in the sense of a free lunch. We pay considerably higher taxes here, than do Americans, in order to handle the cost. We also have to buy private insurance, to pay for non-covered medical bills, or pay the fees out of our own pockets.

It may not be the ideal system, but I doubt that it's about to change significantly. There are a couple of side benefits, as well. I doubt that many people in Canada become insolvent because of catastrophic medical bills. Further, I don't think we see many appeals in the media for donations, so that some unfortunate person can access medical care for a life-saving procedure.

We're probably never going to agree about this. Then again, I'm not trying to prescribe a solution for Americans. I'm just trying to explain why I find it puzzling to hear or see Americans telling me how unfortunate I am to be living in a country with "socialized medicine". It really isn't a problem which causes me to lose much sleep.

I hope that Americans will have plenty of opportunity to challenge whatever plan Obama puts forth. I think the really unfortunate aspect to the current debate is that he's trying to impose a "solution" without establishing a consensus. I'm sure, though, that Americans will make themselves heard before a final decision is made.

Hugh:

You said:

"I doubt that many people in Canada become insolvent because of catastrophic medical bills."

But I wonder how many people remain unemployed or underemployed in Canada because of the high taxes to subsidize medical "care."

I wonder how many Canadians die waiting for care.

I also wonder how many medical breakthroughs haven't happened in pharma and everywhere else because the world' innovators just can't justify going bankrupt trying to pay for research for a pill or procedure that they won't ultimately make much if any profit from.

My parents have lived in Canada for 13 years and they too have become addicted to the "free" care. It's easy to see how someone would think it's a good system. All you see is Americans suffering financially in comparison. But you can't see what you and the rest of the world is missing.

The disease of entitlement has engulfed most of the world, the U.S. was the last hope and we are caving to this temptation right now.

I pray we don't abandon our meritocracy before it's too late.

I think that we erect a false choice between "socialized healthcare" and "non-socialized healthcare". What capitalist system in the world is completely non-socialized? Adam Smith himself said that the correct system for a free society is a combination of government support and free market, with the latter admittedly being dominant. Also, notwithstanding the films made by the extreme left Michael moore, France does have a good healthcare system. Of course it has problems just like the US has them, and different ones. But I don't think we can deny that France continues to remain a developed country with a high standard of living, irrespective of its problems. There is usually no one solution to any problem, and countries should learn from each other.

I have meuhedet coverage and am very satisfied, but of course my doctor was born and educated in America. I never go to the after hour doctors, I'd rather wait for the next day to go to my dr. than a dr. who received his education who knows where. Past experience has taught me this(4 month old diagnosed with menagitis instead of ear infection, plus several other misdiagnosis' or not diagnosis')So socialized coverage with democratic learning is the best combo(while it lasts)!