Jindal has some good ideas. If only he had not been such a joke in that infamous speech of his.

No one supporting HC reform has answered the question of how we will cover more people at less cost without rationing. That is why Carnahan was laughed at when he said HC reform would provide a 6 billion dollar surplus. These people have no clue about the way the real world operates.

The only way they make their plans revenue neutral is to tax the begeebus out of people.

How well does Medicare or Medicaid control costs? To ask the question is to answer it and there is now way any government option will do the same. Anyone voting for this pig in a poke as well as the cap and tax will be risking their position. Unfortunately this country will have to suffer through its consequences to have these clowns lose their seats.

Robert;

OT but I assume you saw the story about Jordan stripping Palestinians living there of their citizenship and blaming Israel. Plus Obama has demanded Israel freeze construction of apartments in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in east Jerusalem. Jerusalem apparently has enough Jews or esle Obama is sucking up to the Arabs in the ME. I know where I would put my bet.

Davo:

I agree. Jindal's TV appearance was awful. He needs an image makeover.

Nevertheless, he is smart, down to earth, an expert in health care, and a man who should be a leading Presidential contender.

In contrast, Obama is as slick as they come. I recognize his staged mannerisms as deeply rooted in Hollywood image making. Axelrod, I have heard, hired the best people in the biz to burnish Obama's image.

But image, after a while, is not enough, and I believe that Obama is committing a huge mistake now, making all these public appearances pushing Obamacare. If you look at the polls, Obama's ratings have been dropping steadily with each public dog and pony show. He looks and sounds like a desperate demagogue. And the public senses it.

He would have been smarter to let his surrogates beat the drum, but he's way too narcissistic, believing that his personal charm can get anything done.

I pray he keeps it up. In the end, Obama is Obama's own worst enemy.

Here in Israel we have a national health care system.
I can proudly say that there is not one Israeli who doesn't receive outstanding medical care. Rich or poor, elderly or young every citizen receives high quality care without having to wait on line.
Renal Dialysis, Radiation Therapy, Cardiac Catheterization, In-Vitro Fertilization, Bone Marrow transplants etc. are all covered 100% by health care almost immediately!

Almost all medicines are also covered with a nominal fee to the recipient.

To cover the cost of this universal health system every persons salary is taxed 5% off the top.
There is a cap with salaries over 70,000 shekel per month. But the real cost saving feature is in the salaries paid to Health care providers.
Physicians who work in Govt. facilities or for one of the HMO's are paid on the avg. of 10,000 to 15,000 shekel a month($2000-$3000).

A senior Cardiologist with 15 years experience who is wholly employed by a govt. hospital makes about $40,000 a year!!! Now can you imagine such a wage scale in the US?!

Also, private medicine is virtually non-existent except for those treatments which are not in the Health basket(cosmetic surgey or Aesthetic medicine).

So, my point is that in Israel the system works only because an exorbitant tax is place upon the population and Physician/nurses salaries are pitiful. This will not be the case in the US and the population will suffer greatly.

There was an ER Doctor who called a talk show today with an interesting story. He had emigrated from Canada when he was 18 and still had plenty of Canadian relatives.He took his medical training here.

His aunt called while on vacation from Jamaica and told him she wasn't feeling well - and here I can't remember what the affliction was - it was Dr techno-babble - but he advised her to check into an ER when she got back to Canada.

It was an affliction in her leg and she needed a blood thinner. Something that could conceivably cause a stroke in the worst-case scenario.

After waiting 12 hours for someone to see her the Dr gave her an aspirin and sent her home.

Now here is the point: The Dr. said that here under the same conditions she would have been prescribed Warfarin (Coumadin) and a few other things to really make sure the blood was thinned. Aspirin IS a blood thinner - how many of you are like me and take a "baby dose" - 81 mg - daily to help prevent a stroke? - But there are far more effective (and expensive) thinners.

The Dr said that his aunt "should be OK" but one thing never mentioned in this debate is the standard of care between the 2.

One reason I have refused to join the AARP is their support of both 1993's HilliaryCare and now Obama care. This is perplexing to me since with socialized medicine comes rationing and older people are frequently denied operations and procedures on the logic that their life is ending soon anyway.

Johnny:

The minute Obama beat his pulpit shouting “Buck up, people,” I knew that we were seeing the true face of government take-over of health care: an old fashioned leftist demagogue who cannot answer any hard questions except by lying.

Obama calls it reform, when in fact it's a retrograde socialist program.

Gregg:

I know several American physicians who made aliyah to Israel. Not one of them works in Israel. They fly back to America to make their money. They want no part of the Israeli medical system.

The Israeli model is not a model for America.

Our health care system is not perfect, but when you demand utopia, you usually end up in hell.

Bill:

When Ariel Z'TL, was undergoing treatment we met many Canadians who came to America for MRI's and chemotherapy. I know of no one who went to Canada for medical treatment.

It's not hard to figure out this imbalance.

Johnny:

Oh yes, I did see the reports about the Jordanians.

What a shock.

Notice all the protesters in the streets.

Not.

Robert, I am arguing neither for nor against any of your points, but am simply and genuinely curious: What do you imagine you'd think about all of this were you and your family uninsured or underinsured?

Robert..."when you demand utopia, you usually end up in hell"

Reminds me of a passage from Walter Miller's great novel A Canticle for Leibowitz:

"The closer men came to perfecting for themselves a paradise, the more impatient they seemed to become with it, and with themselves as well. They made a garden of pleasure, and became progressively more miserable with it as it grew in richness and power and beauty; for then, perhaps, it was easier for them to see that something was missing in the garden, some tree or shrub that would not grow. When the world was in darkness and wretchedness, it could believe in perfection and yearn for it. But when the world became bright with reason and riches, it began to sense the narrowness of the needle's eye, and that rankled for a world no longer willing to believe or yearn. Well, they were going to destroy it again, were they—this garden Earth, civilized and knowing, to be torn apart again that Man might hope again in wretched darkness."

I think the syndrome Miller describes here explains a lot about our current cultural & political situation.

There already is free health care in America, it's called the emergency room. Anyone can go there, wait forever, and it's illegal for them to turn you away, even if you're there to scam for drugs.

There is also already government-paid for health insurance in this country, it's called Medicare and Medicaid and lord help anyone who relies on that. They have both not only bankrupted many hospitals and doctors, but they have begun to bankrupt the entire nation.

Obama and the Dems' sage strategy for all of this is to offer MORE govt. Health insurance to just about everyone. As if the problem is all those rich people out there who refuse to join in with insurance plans and if everyone gets in as a payer, then everyone's costs will go down.

This is ridiculous.

More health insurance will mean more cost and less care. There will still be the same number of doctors, in fact soon there will be less. Rationing will have to be the result, and as anyone in an ER will tell you, no one who's there for the sniffles just goes home because of the wait. They'll stick with it because it's free.

When you start to rely on the govt. For EVERYTHING including your very life, your life as an individual begins to end. It is my firm belief that the number one reason Europe is a souless immoral continent is because of socialism and the killing off of self-reliance, personal resonsibility, and real risk-reward models for effort.

If the U.S. goes down this path the world is doomed.

As for Israel and its wonderful health care system, are you kidding??? Do you think it's wise that the people who have your life in your hands are making so little money? How much more wealthy and prosperous would Israel's economy be without that huge added tax? Do people who take care of themselves get a discount on that tax, or do they all pay the same whether they're working out every day or visiting the Elite candy stand 8 times a day?

Sorry, but truth be told, we all SHOULD be paying a lot for health care. What's worth more? When I see people on soup kitchen lines taking pics of themselves with volunteer servers like Michelle Obama with their iPhome cameras, I think I can say the problem is less people who can't afford health insurance and more about people who won't pay for it.

"I know several American physicians who made aliyah to Israel. Not one of them works in Israel. They fly back to America to make their money. They want no part of the Israeli medical system."

Nu, c'mon. I know quite a few US accountants and lawyers who continue to fly back to America to make their money. This does not mean that we all do. (I certainly do not). Do I make less as a CPA here than I would in the States? Yes. Is it worth it to me? Yes. There are doctors who feel the same.

Regarding physicians, I also know several American physicians who made aliyah to Israel... and who are practicing here. I have met more than one in the course of my treatments for this and that over the years. For that matter, Dr. Applebaum, who was murdered in the attack on Cafe Hillel in 2003, was an American physician who moved to Israel and not only worked here but also revolutionized urgent care services here. (Incidentally--based on my own experiences with Terem-the urgent care clinic he established--these do function within the socialized medicine framework.) I also know several Israeli physicians who worked in the States for a spell and decided to come back. Again--some of my doctors can be included in this list.

One point that should be made--a common justification for high physician salaries is the high cost of med school. My understanding is that med school here is much cheaper. (For Israelis--not necessarily for Americans enrolling in the medical school overseas student programs). I am going to double check that with a friend whose son just went through the Hebrew U med school. In addition, the structure is different--you go straight to med school, as opposed to doing university and then med school.

Curious:

Your question implies that my stance is the product not of honest intellectual reflection but self-interest.

In short, you do not rip apart the world's best health care system in order to create some utopian fantasy. For in the end, utopian dreams turn into hellish realities.

Gila:

Regarding high salaries. I want physicians to make lots of money. In this way more people will enter the profession. The more Doctors the better for society. More doctors equals more competition which will create multi-payment levels. That's how a free market functions.

No question that many fine doctors practice in Israel without a thought to working in America. And Dr. Applebaum Z'L was a tzaddik.

But that is neither here nor there in relation to Obama's plans for American health care system, which is about as dysfunctional as his Middle East policy.

I'll say it again, an Israeli system is not a model for American health care.

This is not about Israel, it's about America.

Is the current US system really the best in the world?

Robert, I'm surprised and sorry you inferred that. That was not my intention. I had considered my question to be straightforward, and was looking forward to reading your thoughts.

Best wishes for a good Shabbat.

Obamacare is not socialism, it is fascism.
Nobody will tell me what treatment I can have.
Nobody will "counsel" me on dying, except my family and friends.
Nobody will send me home with "pain killers" to die (see town hall meeting/Jane Strum),
85% of Americans are happy with their health insurance, if not they have the option to change.
Do not believe obama scare tactics of 45-50 million uninsured. Many can afford health insurance but make the choice not to get it and many are non-Americans.
I would think we can help the real number of 20 million uninsured much cheaper that mulatto man, pelosi, chicago thugs and the sheeple want.
Oligarchy=government ruled by a powerful few
Democracy=government ruled by the majority
Republic=government limited by law
Our founding fathers designed America as a Republic.
The essence of freedom is the proper limitation of government.
Freedom is not free.
I will wear a black armband to show my opposition to obamacare and honor the victims of another fascist dictator.
I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK
STOP OBAMA
TEA PARTIES
GOD BLESS AMERICA

American "Patriot",

You completely destroy your message with two words: "mulatto man".

I dislike Obama intensely because I think his policies and goals harm and weaken this great nation. But my dislike for him has absolutely nothing to do with the color of his skin, nor should that ever be a criteria by which thinking people--and American patriots most of all--judge the aims and actions of others.

Go back and reread the first line of the Declaration of Independence. If you are a true patriot, you should have it memorized. Now try to live up to that sentence.

"There already is free health care in America, it's called the emergency room."

Jake, you need to learn a thing or two about how things really work before you attempt to pass off your statements as fact.

Going to the ER is not free. If you cannot pay when you go in, they WILL send you a bill later. You will get bills from both the hospital and doctors. And if you don't pay these bills, plan on having your wages garnished or leans placed on your assets.

I hate to bring this up, but are you actually aware that our health care system is the laughing stock of the world? That Americans are currently terrified of getting sick because of what their insurance might do? My mother's company will fire her the moment they realize she has developed heart and hearing problems from her work - because their liability would become unmanageable. When (not if) that happens no one else will insure her, we won't be able to afford her medicine, no one will insure her, the new retirement age puts her beyond the reach of medicare, and she will die. (Not maybe, will). As for the comic, no offense but I know people in Germany and Canada, and have family in Romania - and I have not heard a peep out of them about being unhappy with their medicine or treatment. So... where are you getting your information?

By the way, you Do know there are no death panels in the proposal right? The only thing in there says that individuals should have clear and thought out living wheels. And that part of the proposal started with Bush, not Obama.

Please, discussions are great, but how about checking your information before posting and confusing people? We have all the internet at our fingertips, stop following Fox news like cute little sheeple and do your own research - and if you end up with the same conclusions that's fine, but think for yourselves and suggest Something other than 'everything is fine because I am ok right now'. The bill really is not perfect, it needs fixing and Democrats aren't any better at it then Republicans were, but we need Something and soon.

- Daniel
Atlanta, GA

(And the reason I am not posting a real email address is quite frankly that I am scared of fanatics, and the anti-reform people seem incredibly hateful so far)